>> i think there's an analog for labor unions at this moment. it's the more that labor unions decline, the more labor unions become something that you just hear caricatures about. and that's -- it's easy to characterize something. >> i think absolutely, the lgbt movement has advanced because it focused. it had a clear set of objectives. it went after them. it organized people. focus cuts a different way. if you look at the women's movement, the avoidance of race and economic issues hurt the women's movement in the long run. i believe it has. and i think that the other reality is that there's a difference between the lived