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could become secretary of state. but at that point, that was not realistic. and we just should appreciate and remember the -- we should remember our history. it happened. >> i think that's right. but let me talk politics. sam, you cover politics. who will win a battle in america if there's a battle between those who have seen nostalgia as a political mandate? it's better way back then. before pat buchanan, early '50s, way back. against people who say this country's getting better. for women, black people, immigrants, documented or other. it's getting better for gay people because it's becoming a better, bigger society. who wins that argument? >> it's a complex question because each side can use nostalgia in their own way. for instance, civil rights, you could have one person say well, much of the achievements were part of the individual communities coming together and another one saying listen, if the courts hadn't have helped out, none of this would be

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