ten years, you're pretty much eliminating the possibility he't going to do this again because he's going to be 80 years old by the time he gets out. if you go for a longer sentence than that, is the rationale for it deterrence for others who are out there now? >> that's certainly one of them. look, it's not just deterrence. it's punishment. we're going to punish you for doing what you did over a period of years repeatedly and intentionally and consciously. and it's deterrence, making sure that other people understand exactly how important this crime is and how important it is that you be sentenced justly. i have to imagine one of the people who's looking carefully at the sentencing today is the man sitting in the white house, and he's saying to himself, paul manafort led an otherwise blameless life. i think we're going to be hearing that again if president trump ever issues, say -- ever decides to use one of his other constitutional powers in connection with paul manafort. as the judge said, he led an otherwise blameless life. >> ron clain, i think we now