and lead by fiat. and this is -- this is why steve jobs ended up supporting and wanted to makeads for obama. he believes in obama. but he just believes that his differ identified government was so frustrating for him. >> i also -- he had clarity of vision, which i think was critically important. he had a big, bold idea, and he was willing to sail against the wind to get that done. i remember meeting this new ceo of ibm right after the first mac came out, we had one in our house, and i said, what do you think of that? and he said, oh, not going anywhere. my wife writes some invitations on it. but they were taking on the most established parts of the american economy, and the industrial empire in this country, and they had that vision, and it was bold, and it also had real value. it counted for something. >> i think the lesson for jobs and politics, i kind of agree with walter. but the problem we have now, you can see it in the aarp ad is all the problems are long-term. you look at entitlements. all the political incentives are incredibly short term. survive the next election. jobs, i don't think, gave a hoot