which countries that are democratic tend to survive, a rich country. that's what the social science teaches us. but what i think is, also, clear is those two things are no guarantee. i mean, the reason those two things generally predict that democracies survive is because citizens mobilize. politicians abide by democratic rules and norms. so there's nothing automatic about it. i mean, there's -- we have a kind of self-conception of our society and our democracy that's a machine that runs of itself and i think it is not a machine that runs itself. it requires vigilant action by civilians and politicians to survive. >> i mentioned "the washington post" recently reported president biden has been obsessed with your book. were you aware of that? and what -- what lessons do you hope -- i mean, if it's true, what lessons do you hope that he takes from it? and governs based on? >> we -- we had -- it was mentioned in a biography of -- about him. and also, we had heard, sort of second hand, that he had been