virtually unknown. in many cases i know they were used as target practices by certain navies because they were considered monsters. we have learned as a result of having them in captivity. >> there's no doubt about that. there's a couple of ways of looking at this as well. i too have spent 25 years working with marine mammals with human care. i've had the opportunity to study them in the wild. i've also had the opportunity to use the relationship and the positive reenforcement training we have with the animals to find out the secrets of how they do what they do. maybe it is physiology or productive needs, nutritional issues. these are important things. and so naomi's point, is there a cost? is in an exchange? we spend a lot of time talking about statistics and analysis and whether seaworld or other killer whale holders have done a better job as years progressed. we can talk for hours and hours. but the fact of the matter is we could not learn how the animals do what they do and turn that into conservation and protection of animals without any knowledge