but some of them have taken a stance and said we don't want our members to be forced to be vaccinated. and some unions in fact have said we don't even want this vaccination or frequent testing option unless we get overtime pay or what have you. that's the case for the paramedics union, for example, in new york city. so yes, some unions have stood in the way. i think frankly this is completely ill-advised. it's jeopardizing public health. it's jeopardizing their own members. it's jeopardizing their political influence. but it doesn't mean some of them aren't doing it perhaps because they do have members who are cranks or want more money or they're using it as an excuse to negotiate for other kinds of perks. >> your answer to my why question, the bottom line, makes total sense. but i can't believe that if catherine rampell is calling upon these companies and saying why this duality, i can't believe that would be their rationale. what's their spin? >> it depends on who you ask.