this recording, moreover, they believe any attempt to use it in defense of joe paterno is misguided and inappropriate. wouldn't you think, wendy, they would have -- if they thought there was anything real here that they would have supported it since it supports joe paterno? >> yeah, i guess so. i mean they're very odd bed fellows in this situation. i know that they feel very protective of the name joe paterno. and they're entitled to that. they don't benefit by aligning themselves with this guy even if he says things that help them. >> yeah. >> you know, i do think paterno on some level was overly vilified. i'm not saying he has clean hands. i do think he took a harder hit than he deserved. he had a lot of power at that university. but as a matter of law, it was the university president, that was the person who was responsible. he, i think, i got a pass. that's a shameful hing. >> thanks very much to both of you. john ziegler, the person behind the new sandusky interview will be on cnn tonight at 9:00 eastern. and still to come, a major