they do it by clicks. they know who's popular, who's not. my kid's getting photographed are not going to sell anything but kim and kanye or jay-z's will. so the same people who are condemning this are the same people who are buying the magazines or clicking onto the web sites. >> or tuning into the reality shows that a lot of those celebrities have in which they feature their own children. and also there's a lot of celebrities that are grooming their children to have great careers, too. look at will and jada pinkette smith. they had their daughter willow in quite an astounding -- but it was very artistic video, a music video whiffing her hair. she was about 13 years old. so i think it's just very difficult. which celebrities don't want their children photographed? which do want their children photographed? which want their children to be stars? which celebrities have reality shows? it's hard. >> it should be the parents's choice. i still think whether or not we believe at this table that they're being exploitive in some instances and not in others but