public to fully grasp and understand. but if sondland can say and can confirm what bill taylor heard from his aide, that trump feels far more interested in joe biden and the investigations as opposed to american interest in ukraine, geopolitics more broadly, that is a way in which i think the american people could be able to see how the alleged quid pro quo affected american interest in realtime. it is no longer a hypothetical, and that sort of concreteness, i think, could really elevate the democratic argument against this president. >> and carl bernstein, to you. politics completely aside to the point jim and sam were making earlier about national security implications here, larry pfeiffer told "the washington post" about this now revealed september 26th call in an open restaurant. quote, the security ramifications are insane. using an open cell phone to