what do you think is jocelyn? >> i think that's absolutely wrong. i think that everyone has families. everyone has their own story and how long it takes someone to accept themselves and go through that internal struggle. no one can judge that. >> there is no textbook for this? >> this is an identity that's happening within a globally interconnected world. people are coming into this per ception, this is something new for them. but transgender for the longest time. maybe it's coming as such a new thing. we need to have this deeper conversation. systems that would allow people to be themselves and actually understand that gender is not a binary. it's a spectrum. we should have this understanding the earliest the better. for kids to understand that. >> a real debate about what is right to judge and what isn't? legally, culturally. it's all coming out now. >> let's not judge. >> that would be nice. i don't think we're there yet. it's great to have you both. good luck going forward. good luck with the movement. all right. bruce jenner is a big story.