cipollone and mulvaney were on opsid sides of that. they have been at odds since the transcript, that bad fact set of the president's or the rough transcript of the president's conversation with the president of ukraine came out. it was cipollone's decision to release it. mulvaney objected, as had others. the transcript itself, a lot of people in the white house and on the hill will say is, as you put it, just not a great set of facts to explain or defend. and so because of that, because of that, because of what mick mulvaney said last week from the briefing room podium and because of the president's decision to -- which he then pulled back, to hold the g7 next year at his own personal club in miami, you have folks on the hill feeling like there's just a bridge too far in what they can defend here. so they're talking about process. but there's basic agreement among witnesses who have gone to the hill on what took place around this ukraine controversy. and none of that is beneficial