you don't believe it is torture. most people watching it would say it obviously is. why do you think there's no line crossed there? >> well, first i should make clear, the water boarding that was done in the course of the cia interrogation program, by no means are docile, was not exactly the way it was depicted in that film. i don't mean to downplay the aggressiveness of it. mr. morgan, i'm a lawyer. i'm a lawyer for the cia. and torture is a u.s. statute, is defined in u.s. statute. if i thought or if the justice department to whom i consulted concluded this crossed the bounds into torture, we wouldn't have done it. so were these practices rough? were they harsh? were some of them even brutal? sure. but i didn't believe then and i still don't believe that any of them crossed the boundary into torture. although i understand how people could strongly believe otherwise. it's been a controversy now. >> another former cia lifer, former defense secretary robert