cases i've worked on, probably one of the ones -- some of the ones that are more similar are things that started to go wrong and the pilots don't realize how wrong things are going. it starts spooling down. first it's one thing. if i was to try to make sense of the 11 minutes and the "all right good night" sounding normal is that they have something they think is minor. they're perhaps turning back or going to an alternative airport easier to get to which would explain the turn. the thing they thought was minor and not going to tell air traffic control, they're going to do what they shouldn't do an in-flight troubleshoot which is what they did on alaska 261 and start heading back. and then things go bad in a hurry. like air france, alaska 261. they think they can handle it and they try and they can't. >> and they can't. and by the time they're reaching for the may day it's too late. >> it's a disaster. >> it's too late. so keith, i don't know. i imagine fly boys like you sitting around with your pilot buddies theorizing and speaking more freely than you might do