and then ask for a favor. the paper also says trump had pence deliver the news to ukraine that their aid was going to be withheld at the same time the president was asking ukraine to investigate, quote, unquote, corruption. which, by the way, can we just put out there, ukraine has clearly had issues with corruption, but it actually has made some improvements. and i think that's the context at which -- >> part of it was biden getting the former prosecutor out of there. >> yeah. so does the vice president have d deniability here? >> we don't know the answer to that, because the vice president's security adviser was on that july 25th phone call, heard the president's "do me a favor" comments to the out crth ukranian leader. that phone call happened, the vice president's aide was on that call. after that -- >> can i interrupt for a second?