the big problem is we have different definitions of escalation and i think the big thing that biden is worried about, and i agree with him, is a miscalculation and he's trying to keep things in a neat box. unfortunately the box isn't very neat. >> yeah, i -- i think among the american people we are having a dual impulse right now, on the one hand we don't want military entanglements, we're war weary, on the other hand it strikes me that people every single day are growing more and more angry about what they're seeing vladimir putin do to these poor ukrainians. when you see parents fleeing into other countries with their children, i think it's increasing the resolve of the american people and increasing the desire of the american people to do something. we have an impulse to do something. the consequences of doing something could be, you know, extraordinarily dangerous to everybody, but what putin has done is strengthen the resolve