>> rittenhouse testified in his own defense, which was considered something of a surprise. how important did that turn out to be? >> it was the entire case, pa pamela. we rarely put our clients on the stand because, for instance, looking at the arbery trial, we saw what happened with mcmichaels. it's very dangerous. but with the defense of self-defense, you almost always have to let the client tell the story. they are the ones who can best say they were in fear for their life. why they used the force they used. what exactly happened that led up to the shooting or killing, whatever the issue is. it's almost always necessary, and i think that in this case, it was the entire defense. and to charles' point, it was very interesting that this jury viewed provocation very narrowly. in other words, it wasn't enough that this 17-year-old kid came to kenosha with a gun strapped to him and bad intentions. they were looking for specific