thirdly, we heard from white house officials as late as last week and again early this week that there is no white house record of this call. they still have not been able to locate one. and there should have been likely because we understand there's a protocol and a practice that's demonstrated in many other instances when gordon sondland when he's trying to reach the president, he would call the white house switchboard. he wouldn't call the president on his personal cell phone. >> interesting. maybe that's why the president had to read it off of a cue card. so what does it mean for the president if it turns out that the call that sondland described, elie, never actually happened? >> so it's bad news for the president because what it means is the real call is the one that actually happened two days earlier, september 7th, and we know that because two credible witnesses, bill taylor and tim morrison, both supported by their own notes they took at the time -- that was the real call, and what those witnesses said the call was according to sondland was, i want no quid pro quo, but zelensky needs to get to a microphone and announce the investigations.