you can draw a line from martese johnson and to eric garner and mike brown and unarmed men in confrontations with the police and how we know that the "hands up, don't shoot" is not the truth. now that we know that, are where does it leave us right now? right now, rethinking ferguson and the aftermath. we will will take an in depth look at the hard questions of race, the police, and where do we go from here? we will begin the breaking news with evan perez who has the late west the hanging case. and we have the latest with the martese johnson case. and now, a black man hanging from a tree brings up the worst for many people in the country, what is the latest? >> yes, this is down on the border of mississippi, and local authorities say they found the african-american man with bed sheets hanging from the tree. this is all about 500 yards from the property of a man who has been missing for a couple of weeks now since early this month. the body according to a law enforce enforcement officials that we talked to is believed to be the body of otis byrd who is 54 years ole. he has been missing since earlier this month. we don't know exactly what happened. the authorities believe it could be a suicide or foul play. he was reported missing in earlier in the month. and his family says that, don, that, you know, at the time there was nothing wrong. he didn't portray anything amiss at all. they heard from him regularly until he disappeared, and so now the justice department and the fbi are doing a civil rights investigation simply because of the circumstances in which the body was found. >> we don't know fit is a suicide, but they don't know at this point? >> that is right, thaey don't know at this point. >> thank you, e evan perez. now i want to turn to the uva student who was knocked to the ground and bloodied and the shocking scene all caught on camera. nick valencia has the latest on the investigation, and when i spoke with martese earlier in the afternoon, he said he never presented a fake i.d. or resisted arrest, and what are you hearing there on the campus? >> well, you heard the same thing from his attorney earlier in the afternoon, and that is simply not the case, but it is stark contrast from the police. they say this is how it happened. he showed up to the bar behind me and tried the get in using the fake i.d. and that is when the incident happened. police say that he was uncooperative in the arrest, and the attorney saying that his client martese johnson was the victim of excessive force. >> reporter: at no time throughout the encounter did he present as some purport a fake i.d. nevertheless never did my client present a fake i.d., and my client was thrown to the ground and his head hit the pavement and the officers pressing their knees in his back and his face and head needing surgery. >> the officers have been put on administrative leave, and there have been a investigation into the conduct of the officers. and when you talk to the students on the campus, they say they are shocked that it happened. this is a man who has endless ties to the university and one of the most prominent students on the campus. >> we will get more on that coming up, and for more on that we want to bring in martese johnson's roommate. joshua joshua, thank you for joining us and how are you and martese the doing? >> well, i'm doing well. martese is holding up very well. i just saw him moments before i arrived here. he is still in high spirits, still positive, and still got that same smile on his face that i know him to have so well. so it is seeming like he is mov moving positively through all of this which is going to speak levels to his character and morality in my opinion. >> he is getting huge support online from all kinds of people in places. is he aware of that and how are the students feel on campus today? >> can you ask the kw question one more time? >> he is getting huge support not only there on the campus, but the attorneys are saying that they are getting huge pats of support on the back and huge support on the social media, and i am wondering if it is making a difference of how the students are feeling there today. >> it does indeed. i mean, we are very encourage and uplifted by the fact that so many people around the nation have come to our support, and our seeking of justice for martese in this tragic event that happened. i mean, the police brutality is something that has been happening all around the nation and it sucks that it has to come this close to home for people around this community to finally start talking about it. >> what kind of guy is he? >> he's a very happeny guy. that's the number one thing that i would say. he's such a very happy and positive, positive energetic person. like i said, literally always has a smile on his face and even as we were coming back home, and got back home after the rally last night and the events that transpired last night, and himself and myself and the rest of the roommates the five of us that live together, we were laughing and joking and smiling as if almost as if the incident had never occurred and like i said that speaks so powerful to me of his character, and the morality and the fact that he is willing to stay so positive throughout all of this. >> you did not witness the incident, but what did you think when you saw the video? >> like you said i did not witness the incident, but on the video what i saw was a clear incident of exsescessive force from the police officers. they had the knees in the back and the head was bleeding profusely, and there was blood on the shirt, and a pool of blood on the ground. there were people around that were witnessing it and yelling to the officers that the "yo, his face is bleeding, yo, his face is bleeding," and they did not take human effort to recognize that they had injured him or caused him bodily harm, which is not the job of the police officer to do. the job is to protect and serve the communeity, and members of the community, and martese johnson is a member of the uva and charlottesville community a and what they did to him is absolutely wrong. >> do you think that he was singled out? >> i do. i believe that he was a target of racial profiling, yes. >> why so? >> i mean some people just don't have anything bet erter to do. and it sucks to put it that way. >> was he the only person of color in the line or were they only picking out the black people or just -- >> i am not sure. i am not sure about that. i do know this there has never been a case before now where there has been especially -- and there has never been a case where there has been a white student who has been thrown to the ground and handcuffed because of the fact that he e presented a fake i.d. to to a bar. and one important part of the information that has been circulating after the conference with martese and his lawyer that the information to the bouncer and the lawyer is that it is not a fake i.d., but it is his real i.d. and that makes the officers who committed this act even more reprehensible, for that act, because he committed no crime. >> all right. i want to thank you, joshua kinlaw the roommate of martese johnson, and we will have him on the show when he can. thank you. and now, going to talk about that fateful day in ferguson and when we come back, we will also discuss martese johnson. >> hands up don't shoot. hands up, don't shoot. ready for another reason to switch to t-mobile? 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>> the weapon was drawn and his hands were up when he fired, and he started to get down, but the officer still approached with the weapon drawn, and he fired more shots. >> reporter: but federal authorities say that he was wrong, but there are still several who say that he did have the hands up. we read the 800-page report, and this is what those close to the grand jury said this. witness two, the biracial male i know for sure that the hands were not above the head. witness 102, snitches get stitches and eventually he did talk and he said that he did not see the hands up and he witnessed brown moving fast to wilson. and witness four a biracial female with a clear view of the scene said she heard the shots fired inside of wilson's car and she heard wilson yell stop stop stop and brown ran, and then for a second he started to raise his hand as though he considered to surrender, but then he balled up his fists and charged at wilson. in a stunning admission she said that wilson waited a long time to fired his gun adding she would have fired sooner. and then a 55-year-old black e female said that she noticed that brown put up the hands for a brief moment, and then turned around and made a shuffling movement and then put the arms down in a running position and ran towards wilson. most of it is not made public until long after the shooting, and that is too late to silence the slogan. >> and the witnesses also say that the hands were up. and on some level that is still minutia, because we are debating whether or not the hands are up but we are not debating whether or not he is dead or alive. we know that he is dead and whether or not the hands were up, he is not here, and he kid not have a weapon. >> reporter: but the argument is that if he is not surrendering then there is a justification. >> to me, that is a repetitive tactic that has been used against black males in dealing with the police for the longest. you can root back to the slavery with that tactic. you have to find a way to villainize the victim and finding a, you know the smallest means of why this officer used deadly force. >> reporter: the report says that officer wilson was justified, but in this case at least the facts can't stop a slogan. and the reason for that is that a lot of the folks who even do believe what the department of jus justice report said say that this is a bigger issue, and they will not stop say ging these things because they do believe that are there is a real problem in america that needs to be looked at. don? >> sara sidner great reporting. i want to bring in the attorney for darren wilson and van jones, cnn political reporter, and jeff warder president of the police officers association. and van, i want to read part of the doj report on the michael brown shooting and it is what darren wilson said when i met with him, and he said that he responded to brown reaching into the suv and punching him by withdrawing the gun, because he could not access less e lethal weapons while seated inside of the suv. brown then grabbed the weapon, and struggled with wilson to gain control of it and wilson fired striking brown in the hand. and the report goes on the say that brown's dna was inside of the suv and the collar and his own wounds plishestablish that brown's arm and torso were inside of the suv. what do you say to these facts? >> well, first of all, it is important for everybody to say, listen we didn't have all of the facts at the beginning of this. we have more facts now, but nuchb to facts now, and none of the witnesses were subject to any serious cross-examination, and part of the reason that people are hesitant to embrace this particular set of find ingsings is because they are based on the grand jury process that many people felt was suspect from the very beginning. and another thing, if we are trying to figure out why people, including the reporters and everyone else was suspicious of the police department do not forget that the police department was acting in way ss that shocked the whole world, and not only did they leave the body in the street and refused to name the officer, and released a packet smearing brown without releasing information about the case, and they stone walled the media for so long and meanwhile, they unleashed the militarized police force and released reporters -- >> and van, you are relitigating the thing, and i am asking you the respond to the d.o.j. report and how do you respond to the hands up, don't shoot? >> well my response is that the i dont't rejekt the d.o.j. report, but i understand why other people don't take it seriously, because nobody cross-examined the witness, and everybody knows that the grand jury, there was no cross-examination. it was a very one-sided grand jury on that. >> i wanted to say this earlier, and can we put it up? i want to put up the information from "newsweek" and from the innocence project. full screens here. there are 318 wrongful convictions overturned by dna evidence since 1989 and most of the eyewitness testimonys felt confident in their mem are ris when under oath on the stand. yet eyewitness testimony contributed to 72% of the wrongful konconvictions, according to the innocence project a nonprofit legal and public policy group. often eyewitness mis misidentification is a playing a role in 72% of the wrongful convictions in dna testing nationwide and why are you shaking your head, jeff? >> well, don, it is frustrating that we can't come together and acknowledge the facts in the case case. because i don't think that we can move past it and turn the corner that we need to as a nation until we do. the justice department and the grand jury find ingsings are clear. i understand van's perspective, but to say that there is no cross-examination, and you know that the attorneys were turning over every stone the and doing everything that they could to find some credible evidence to the contrary of what the grand jury's findings were. >> and why are you saying that? i am sorry, go ahead, jeff. were you there or a part of that? i don't understand why you were saying that? >> well eric holder was a part of the course early on who want d wanted to join in rushing to judgment against darren wilson and it is his justice department investigating it, and in every police department when they have come in to do a civil rights investigation under general holder they have found a discriminatory practice. so their inclination is not to defend the cop cans ors or to excuse the behavior, but to find guilt. >> sara you wanted to weigh in on it. >> yes, van jones, you said it is witnesses, but it is not just witness, because there sis physical evidence as well, and the department of justice to be fair went into ferguson looking for problems and look toging to see if there were civil rights violation, and they did not go in not trying to find them, and that is made very clear if you look at the amount of evidence, and i mean they were thorough and i have read this report over and over and over again, and maybe i am slightly obsessed, but the bottom line is that there was physical fmevidence and testimony and by the way, some of the witnesses recanted which is in the report as well and the feds did talk to the witnesses, and it was not just the local people, but it was the feds. >> and there is one story and then in the testimony they told another story, and hang on, because i want to get in jim towwey who is officer wilson's attorney. how is officer wilson feeling now? does he feel vindicated by the report? >> absolutely he does. this is a long time coming, and it is funny, because i am listening to everybody speak about how they don't believe the justice department report, but if you report to read it, it is 86 pages long. >> nobody said that. >> go ahead, but i think that you did, van. >> i didn't. >> and it went through every witness, and not only what they testified to and how they testified, but it made a judgment on whether or not they were credible or not, and this whole "hands up, don't shoot" started with dorian johnson who couldn't keep his own story straight. that sis the first problem with the man stra being "hands up don't shoot" is with dorian who is all over the map with it, and as the justice department points out h he is wholly not credible. >> and i am told that dorian johnson did not stick around and he as soon as the altercation started, he left the scene and he did not stick around. >> that is correct. >> okay. stay with me and as we rethink the events, how did it spread from the streets of a suburb of st. louis to the across the world? alright, so this tylenol arthritis lasts 8 hours but aleve can last 12 hours. and aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. so why am i still thinking about this? how are ya? good. aleve. proven better on pain. bring us your baffling. bring us your audacious. we want your sticky notes, sketchbooks, and scribbles. let's pin 'em to the wall. kick 'em around. kick 'em around, see what happens. because we're in the how-do-i-get-this-startup- off-the-ground business. the taking-your-business- global-business. we're in the problem-solving business. 400,000 people - ready to help you solve problems while they're still called opportunities. from figuring it out to getting it done we're here to help. all right. everyone, we are back, and "hands up, don't shoot" was a rallying cry and protest akcross the country before most people realized it is not true. and media consultant brian celtser has that part of the story. >> reporter: four words and repeated at rallies an painted on signs and brought thousands of protesters' hands into the air since the august killing of unarmed teen michael brown at the hands of police officer darren wilson. when the eyewitnesses said this -- >> he puts the hands up like this, and the cop continued to fire. >> and he put the hands into the air and being compliant and he was shot down like a dog. >> hands up don't shoot. >> and those four words with the black lives matter movement across the country, and news media and pop culture, and the st. louis rams causing an uproar among the police as several players take the field with hands up in the air, and it has stay ing staying power as pharrell turns his tag line to "hands up." and it is true that some say brown had the hands up. and for some it is a symbol. >> our hearts are out there marching with them. >> reporter: here at cnn a panel of commentators moved by the protests put their hands up. >> and some celebrate and others were outraged by the continued phrase. >> the st. louis rams think it is cool for them to suggest that st. louis cops shoot young black men who had their hands nupup in the air when we know that it was a lie? it is a lie. >> reporter: washington post writer jonathan capehart says that hands up don't shoot is built on a lie, and in fact a justice of department report contradicts the report that brown had the hands up. and now, as protesters are calling for justice, some are phrasing it differently, black lives matter. journalists do try to do their best and do their best in many cases, but this is a case for reason of reflection and, don there is a reason for soul searching, because of the reliability of the evidence by witnesses, and that is what you brought up in the last segment. >> thank you, brian. and now, we are bringing in our panel, that were introduced earlier, and kevin, you are the most outraged of all of the panel? can we say that? >> yes, i am. because the fact that it was built on a lie, and the fact that people continue to want to promulgate the lie, and the fact that they have embarrass eded the city of ferguson and the great people, there and the guy who wrote to article who started the lie, a ndnd he did the mea culpa with a but at the end, and the attitude is still that the bigger issue around cop killings and all of the things that lead into ferguson and the statistics are all lies and the things that continue to be lies about this city, and the idea is that if people 2,000 miles away know what black people in ferguson who voted for mayor and e voted for chief of police and now have a cop exonerated are now being looked at as fools, and that we are continuing to treat this as if people are fools. >> monique you believe that it could be true? >> absolutely. hands sup theup is the ultimate truth, and the reason that it is going across the country is that it is a posture known to black people whether they rare in the halls of congress or in the nfl or whether they live in the very most marginalized communeities or the campuses of yale. the reason that people are yelling "hands up" is because it is a posture known to them in their communeities, and what happened to mike brown matters. >> and the report and the forensics of the report, does it matter? >> it absolutely matters, but the report is not a public and criminal trial, and that is what the people are calling for. >> and charles? >> well, i think that we have to talk about the report and not remember that there are two reports. >> that is right. >> and we have to and if you can't take one and say, i believe this one, and i discard the other one, because the other one provides the context for the other one, and that is the first thing. but the second thing, if you are truly in pursuit of honesty, the truth will h never hurt you, and you can look at the statements, and say, okay these do not match up with the original reports of what we heard the people said to the media, right? and you can acknowledge that the, but it still does not hurt you as a person if you are truly in search of truth. malcolm x said that i am for truth no matter who telling it and no matter who explores it and who it is against. that is important. and two things that happened before what you just highlighted on from the report. two things that happened that we still need to have clairerity on. officer wilson is said to have known about the theft at the store, but when he confronts mike brown, he does not immediately ask him -- >> and quickly. >> i think that the issue that we are missing is the physical evidence and the physical evidence clearly established a shooting in the vehicle when mr. brown tried to take away officer brown's gun, and every police officer knows that if somebody tries to take your gun, you shoot them off and the reason is that police officers are murdered with the police officer's guns regularly. a and so once the pursuit is outside of the vehicle, it is clear from the physical evidence and there is no doubt about it, and it is incontrovertible that he was coming back at officer wilson. that is the key point. >> and not to belabor that -- >> but the witnesses were not cross-examined. >> and the physical evidence shows it. >> and it was not scrutinized -- >> and you do not trust general holder? >> and did you hear the in information -- >> no, it is not. if there is not -- >> and the testimony is not often reliable but in many cases, and there are many, and 75% of the people wrongly convicted -- >> and the witnesses who did not want to come forward and those are the voices that we did not hear in the news coverage, and that is a lesson for the journalists. >> and first of all, many people were blatantly lying, and when you are talking about the people making a mistake and many time people in the heat of the situation, and they make a mistake, and there were people not making mistake, and they blatantly lied about darren wilson, and it is completely exonerated and completely exonerated, and the second part of the report condemns ferguson it is hard on black folk, and there are nine municipalities in mo missouri being sued, and black mayors and black city council that are predominantly black cities doing far more e egregious damage to blacks in doing exactly what they are saying in ferguson two to the three times egregious, and none of them are being sued by eric holder because they have black mayors and black city council members, he is doing racially motivated justice, and by the way, i don't care what the outcome is, and i want right and wrong, and if he is going to do it, do it fairly and equally. >> and evidence matters. and with the johnson case at uva, and the student with the roommate who came on and he said that we don't know of any white students -- >> and we don't know and somebody comes on the tv and makes that statement, we don't know how often they make force, and somebody said that he did not resist resist. he is clearly, and he is on the ground and won't let them put the handcuffs on. >> and now, after all of the anger of ferguson, what have we learned? 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>> well, looking at the physical evidence because that is what makes or breaks a case and if we listen to darren wilson's side of the story every bit of the evidence backs up his side of the story. the evidence on the car, inside of the car, and the evidence on mike brown himself. we have a blood trail going to the car and outside of the car, and we have injuries inside of the car when michael brown was charging at him, and he went airborne and landed on the face and the justice department went into great detalil in describing that physical evidence and that is why when we were discussing the case with you earlier this summer don, we were confident what the findings would most likely be, because we were confident in what the physical evidence would show us irrespective of what the eyewitnesses said. >> sarah, we were both there in the ground and you were struck in the head with an object when there was no indictment. why people and it does not matter what the reports say, and what the actual evidence says that officer darren wilson was cleared, and people believe what they want to believe, and nothing is going to change their mind. >> that is true. and it is untrue. there are people who have looked at the report and said okay we have seen that officer darren wilson generally exonerated, but we will see the other report and there is a perceived situation, and where people feel that there is a real problem, and there is a real problem. if you don't think that there is profiling going nonferguson, then you are just ignoring the numbers. i am sorry, i have looked at the re report, but i have talked to dozens of people black, white, whoever lives in that town and business owners, and the mayor, himself, and the mayor eventually came out after first making a statement that he didn't think that there was a problem of race in the town said later on you know what, maybe i was incorrect. because i didn't realize system of the stuff that was go ging on in the city, and i didn't realize how much it hurt people and how much it bothered people these ticket, and going to jail for not being able to pay a traffic ticket. that is a problem. >> and why so hard for you, kevin, to believe that one thing can exist, and the other thing can exist, because it is not just in a vacuum, and it is not that black and white and there can be a issue in ferguson. >> and you are right there is an issue in ferguson and in new york city, what is the cost of the ticket and the cost to get your car impounded and look at the fees and how they are dispro posh disproposh natalie going to the blacks and the poor and beyond. >> and you are saying it goes beyond? >> yes and every epicenter, and nobody knew ferguson three or four months ago. >> and how hard -- >> well, it is going to be playing out. >> charles? >> well, i have to say this. these two facts have to be put into context from the first report to the second one. except the physical evidence. nobody is going to be arguing with that and the forensics are the forensics, but in the context of this they stopped mike brown because they were -- he does not say that you rare the suspect, and i want to question you, and none of that, and what the second report says is that the warnings for walking the streets is only to black people and the context of the idea is that even akccepting the physical evidence, instead of having an opportunity to de-escalate this and it does not happen that and he pulls the truck in front of him him, and slings the door open, and slams it into mike brown and then slams the door back and people want to believe that the mike brown just -- >> come on. >> who is saying that? >> well, don, this is not about racial profiling, but it is about a robbery at a convenience store. >> why didn't he just question him, and why is the first interaction that wilson have with mike brown -- >> did you read the report? it says he asked to send me more cars. >> can we have a bigger context here. >> and i need to question you, because we need more -- -- >> well, it is walking down the roodad in the middle of a robbery. >> that is jeff roorda. >> and to look at this and learn from it in terms of the tactical miscues, and that is what the story should be in terms of the police training, but if people want to focus on the race and misthe policing at large, and that is is why i am so frustrated. >> and david, there is a reason -- >> and van, hold on a second and we will do that after the break and i promise you, but i have to take the break, and don't go anywhere, everyone. i will be right back. [ r&b slow jam playing ] ♪ yeah, girl ♪ ♪ you know, i've been thinking about us ♪ ♪ and, uh, i just can't fight it anymore ♪ ♪ it's bundle time ♪ ♪ bundle ♪ ♪ mm, feel those savings, baby ♪ and that's how a home and auto bundle is made. better he learns it here than on the streets. the miracle of bundling -- now, that's progressive. so...you're sayin' you'll give me my credit score for free... right! now you're gonna ask for my credit card - - so you can charge me on the down low two weeks later look, credit karma - are you talking to websites again? this website says 'free credit scores'. oh. credit karma! yeah, it's really free. look, you don't even have to put in your credit card information. what?! credit karma. really free credit scores. really. free. i could talk to you all day. my enormous spanl back -- panel is back with me and before we went to break, van wanted to weigh in. go a go ahead. >> i wanted to give some context african-american teens are 2 11 more times more likely than white teens to be killed by the police, and that is a shocking number. >> and some of you are shakeing the heads and you don't believe the number. >> well, let me have the chance to -- >> and now, to respond to that they say that statistic has been debunked. >> and no, it is a back and forth and you don't like that stat and other people do. and okay. we will go to another one, and 13% of the population is african-american and 31% of the people killed by police are african-american, and 31% are not attack inging, and so these are the context that you understand that people are not reluctant to believe. i am not rejekting the doj report but this background is important to understand the conversation. >> and van is correct that we have to have the conversation. >> well shgs, we need more than the conversation, but we need the action, and we keep saying the conversation. conversation. >> but part of the problem is dirty data and we need good data and there are people like myself trying to get the good data to understand the scope of the problem. and whatever the case is, perception is out stripping the reality of what we understand about what the numbers show. >> and e jeff roord. >> is that the reality out there, jeff? >> well here's the reality, don, and here is something that everybody on the panel should agree with that tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that, some young kid is going to be deciding to use deadly force games at police aufofficer, and somebody is going to be hurt, and it might be the kid or the cop, and it is going to be happening every day -- >> and van -- >> and van, you have sucked the air out of the room, and talk about getting past this instead of grasping at straws. >> and that is not the way -- >> they strike out against a cop. >> and the cop strikes out against the young people. and both need to look at it. >> and the cops don't have a motivation to do it, and he is there to do a job. and he did not -- >> and sara sidner? >> well let me jump in here, and the fact that we can't have a conversation and let everybody speak and listen to what they are saying is part of the problem. sorry, but it is. and the same thing happens by the way on the street when you have two people with opposing views, they can't stop and try to listen to the other, but i want to say this there is certainly a problem, and everybody is talking about it, and they have experienced it when it comes to the african-american, and the police will talk about some of the issues, but one thing that we have to think about is the fact that in this report you heard someone say to the feds snitches get stitch, and there is a whole idea that why we didn't hear some of the truth of the witnesses closest to the action is that they were afraid to say the truth, because they were afraid of the reaction from the crowds that gathered and their community. that is a problem that we need to deal with. >> and jeff and you saw that with -- go ahead, jeff. >> jim or jeff? >> jim, towey yes. >> yeah and you know that whole situation of talk ging about the snitches get stitch, and the police and we didn't make any statements from our camp at all, and the police that with were handling the investigation said let us develop the evidence. let's gather all of the evidence and not rush to judgment, and that is what they do in these situations, but the problem in every one of these situations in which someone loses the life is a situation in which the police aufoff ser is trying to effectuate the arrest and somebody does not want to be arrested and if you submit to the lawful authority, you don't have these problems burk if you submit, you will, and if someone says you are under arrest it is scary, because he does not know the response from the person he is going to be saying it to unless he is intimately acquainted with the situation. >> and go ahead, motifa. >> and you have to tell that to the mother of sean bell, and kie gurley and so we are talking about widespread systemic police killings of people and cases not being brought to trial. >> well they are not police people trying to kill and just because there is justification, and don't you understand that part? >> well standby, and make your point again, jim towey. >> you have justification, and police would be going to jail routinely if there were not just justification. >> and well, she has made a good point, and there is no question about it there are cops that have done things wrong and just like surgeon, and cops are not perfect, but to say it is systemic. >> and nobody is saying they are. >> but to say it is systemic and you know what we are not talking about, we are not talking about the black crime. and van was able to the give us the sta tistist ig -- statistics tonon the other side, but about the double of the number of the whites killed on the hands up situation, and we are not talking about that, because if the white people talk about -- >> and because -- >> and if you talk about that can -- >> and van, hold on van. >> and if we talk about things like that, this then suddenly we are not talking about the blacked part of it, but address all of it. the cops should not shoot anybody erroneous lyly, and to her point, those men should not have been shot. >> and i am overtime. go ahead. >> police are afraid to speak out. and my father was a police officer, and my uncle just retired as a police officer, and so we have fear on both sides and the truth is hard to get to. >> i agree on that point. >> and can you do it quickly? i don't want to go to the break right now, keep going. what sis the lesson here, and what have we learned about ferguson and the lesson of "hands up don't shoot?" >> well one is a media issue, and the kin of the muddying of the media waters even so you have activists who have television shows, and people who come on to the activists who are producing a lot of information, and feel like reporters who are opinion people who are the public can't separate from the actual reporters. all of that is a big muddy mess. second is you can't necessarily just believe the people who are willing to come on the screen, because there are people who are not willing to come on screen and nobody has a obligation to come on screen to say anything and you have attorneys who are paid to be advocates and they are on the screen all of the time, and what they say has a little bit more weight than other people, and all of those are real, but i don't want to skip over those point, those protesters were effective in getting the d.o.j. to investigate it, and that cannot be overlooked. >> thank you very much. >> and talking rite here too. >> thank you very much, everyone. i wish we had more time, and we will do it again. that is it. 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