but half the things he was doing on tv were about putting out talking points, taking the sting out, things like that, and everything he's done with ukraine, i mean, he can say it as a lawyer, but just ladling it doesn't make it -- he was a de facto -- >> yes. >> secretary of state. i don't know. >> that's my point. the other thing is, like, the president has a legal team. he's in court all the time. there are some really highly paid adept lawyers defending him in court. rudy giuliani's not doing that. thank you both. >> thanks, guys. >> joining me now is democratic senator chris van hollen of maryland who has been investigating the trump administration's freeze of military aid to ukraine. senator, i wanted to talk to you about that because i think it has got a little lost in the shuffle about whether the freeze itself was lawful or unlawful. what is your sense of why the freeze happened and whether it is lawful or unlawful? >> well, as to whether or not it