of the hope is that -- there's a majority in this country that actually just cares about rights. cares about justice. thinks we shouldn't be divided. the explicitness of it as hate driven -- antisemitic, anti-black, anti-trans, anti-anti-anti-. fearmongering has had a huge impact. in a good way, because we are the majority. >> and it also feels to me -- and again, this is one layer more abstract than the specific rights, anti-bigotry side of thing. just generally, in the 20 years i've covered politics, you generally want to be the moderate versus the extreme. and sometimes, that works to the benefit of conservatives against people on the left whose ideas i like, right? who might be viewed as extreme. but generally, what you want to do -- there are these laps you can take. for instance, you could just condemn, like, outright nazis. like, guys like nick fuentes, who do joking things about, were all these people actually killed in the holocaust?