0 does post-modern warfare call for post-modern civil lib snerts it's friday, february 8, and this is "now." joining us today new york city deputy mayor howard wolfson, editor of "the new republic" frankly for, politico white house reporter carrie rudolph brown making her debut, and our old hand bloomberg white house correspondent hans nichol. there isn't much overlap between critics of george w. bush and barack obama unless you are talking counterterrorism. members of code pink, a group founded during the bush administration to protest the policies of waterboard and detention made their voices heard at yesterday's confirmation hearing for john brennan as cia director. >> they won't even tell congress what country we are killing and our intelligence gathering in this country? >> isn't it a bit rich to see congress posturing like this when they've done such a terrible job of oversight over the course of the last couple of years? >> they're the ones with the hands on the spiget theoretically. >> i don't have a problem with drones. i think drones represent an advance in the history of warfare that -- it's also a bit rich to see john yu pilot criticisms. it's very clear that one of the promises that the obama administration made when they came in is they would take the obama policies and run them through a filter where they would legitimatize them, they would add protections that would enhance civil liberties. they've let these programs continue in nontransparent ways. they've done little to establish rationale regulations of them, very clear rules that would make us feel better that they were with, and i was sort of expecting all my democratic friends, all of my friends on the left p to howl and say what an outrage this was. i could only imagine if this is a front page story about george bush and dick cheney going over a kill list late at night. democrats have mostly given the president a pass on this, and republicans are mostly okay with the policy of killing terrorists with drones. as a result, as a country, we are allowing this to happen. people are basically okay with it. >> what's interesting to me is there is very little bipartisanship in washington. wonderful people can both attest. david brooks, i'll quote him, basically making the arg utility for what obama is doing. he writes, it would be nice machiavelli writes if a political leader could practice the christian virtues like charity, mercy, and gentleness and still provide for his people. the virtuous leader is compelled to do hard things. the leader who does good things cannot always be good himself. sometimes bad acts produce good outcomes." carrie. >> i think it's -- even yesterday at the hearing senators were not necessarily taking issue with the use of drones themselves. a lot of it was about the secrecy and the lack of transparency that the white house and this administration, past administrations, a lot of pent-up frustration was on display yesterday. you have a post-9/11 world where a lot of these programs happen in secret. there's not even an acknowledgment of whether a memo exists or doesn't exist. a lot of that pent-up frustration came out yesterday, and it wasn't so much. i mean, there are questions being raised about the program itself, but even if you ask folks like even franklin. frank said the use of drones themselves is not necessarily the biggest point of contention. it's whether we as a public know exactly what the government is doing. >> well, i would argue that, let's say there was greater transparency. i don't think the discussion and the debate goes away. then you really get to the nugget of the argument. is it okay to do bad things to get bad people? >> to howard's point, i think the article came out after the election. after the election you'll hear more criticism from democrats. if you don't hear the next two years, are you going to hear leading intu a primary. we have no idea who is going to get in the field, and i know we're criticized for talking about the next election, but this will be an issue that wi we ferret out in iowa, new hampshire. everyone will have to be on record saying if you are going to run for the democratic primary nomination, where do you stand on drone attacks? remember, obama was to the right of hillary clinton during the xanl for going into pakistan and not -- he -- >> john mccain. >> on pakistan he was, right. this shouldn't be that big of a surprise that he is hawkish. this has been one of the central tensions, but sort of aspects of the obama presidency. >> i hear what you're saying. at the same time, you know, he came into office under the banner of no longer will there be black sites. we are closing gitmo. extraordinary rendition. these kind of practices put in place by george w. bush. that is going to be -- we're going to close that chapter in american history. what this reveals is that that chapter is far from being closed. it's still being written. >> we are still arguing based on the movie "zero dark thirty" whether or not enhanced interrogation, torture, helped us get osama bin laden, and you hear conflicting reports about whether or not that was true. if you ask the average person, does interrogation enhance interrogation, does torture work? you'll get ten different anz. we are as a country very much grappling with these questions and trying to sort of move our way through the maze, and i think at the end of the day the chief executive determines that is he going to err on the side of the safety of the american people. if there is a judgment call to be made, he is going to say i will do what i need to do to protect this country, and i think george bush would have said that, and it's pretty clear that barack obama is saying that. >> franklin, i'm curious to know what you think of this. i think one of the reasons the president hasn't been pushed on this as much as he perhaps could have been is because the left has given i won't say a pass, but they've leaned back. >> they've given him a pass. >> and i was trying to sort of better understand why that might be, and i think it's two-fold. one is if the left decides that these tactics are bad, it is then a reput yags of president obama and what he stands for. then if the left decides these tactics are acceptable, then it's coming to terms with the fact that we are doing perhaps terrible, bad things, unconstitutional things in the name of national security. >> drone attacks have also allowed us to wind down wars in afghanistan and iraq. thief allowed us to prosecute al qaeda in a way that has -- doesn't require us putting boots on the ground. >> lead footprint. >> it's the lead footprint. it's consistent with the overall obama gastalt that the left is comfortable with. it also buys the left political space on iraq and afghanistan. obama -- i mean, granted, the country is exhausted by these wars, but there haven't been any traditional attack that is you see levelled against a democrat for winding down a war and for -- it's allowed him to project strength, and it's brought him an incredible amount of political space. >> in terms of the sort of hoops, intellectual hoops that you have to jump through, if you are a member of the progressive left and president obama represented a sea change in terms of national security policy, i will go back to what the economist wrote. as mr. obama's second term national team takes shape, the same dmrema will confront them as face mr. bush all those years ago. is the country made safer when enemies are killed or when they're taken alive. can either course be taken while preserving the privacy of law that makes america america. that's the long game-short game. drone attacks increase radicalism on the ground. >> there's the fact that drone attacks have such ease of use, and we are using them not just to get leadership. we're using them on an everyday basis. part of it has to do with just that the distance between the actual warfare itself and the people who are pulling the trigger, and you want there to be some regulation. you want there to be some check on executive power there. not just some guy in the basement of the white house -- >> with a kill list. >> with a kill list. >> i'm not sure he is in the basement of the white house. i think he is probably in the roosevelt room, but what do i know? >> the point about brennan is there was a ton of power concentrated in one guy and will continue to be concentrated. >> if the drone program continues to be under the ages of the cia and not go to defense, then john brennan remains the man. we have to take a break, but when we come back, yesterday attorney general eric holder reiterated the white house's plans and hopes for comprehensive gun reform. >> the administration's plan, which i helped the vice president and others to develop, in which the president announced last month includes a series of 23 executive actions. the justice department and other federal agencies are working to implement. along with a range of legislative proposal that is we've called upon congress to pass and to pass without delay. >> emphasis on delay. but are there incentives for lawmakers to wait? we will discuss the scenarios next on "now." ♪ [ male announcer ] why do more emergency workers everywhere trust duracell...?? duralock power preserve. locks in power for up to 10 years in storage. now...guaranteed. duracell with duralock. trusted everywhere. duracell with duralock. do you guys ride? 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