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But one i want to push back just a bit. friday's indictments did get the president to move from some 400 pound guy in new jersey to now saying well, yes, yes, of course the russians tried to interfere with our elections. i've always said that. of course not true but he has moved in that direction, he's now just saying it didn't have an impact. >> that's right. and i think that's part of the power of the mueller investigation which is he's bringing facts to the table and i've said this before mika, you've heard me. part of what we need to watch is what director mueller is doing is he is looking...

Sort of thing from a counterintelligence perspective, it can be frustrating because i don't want to lose the forest through the trees. if you cast aside, even some of the most controversial things, whether or not the fbi lost a bunch of e-mails, or whether or not the steele dossier is factual or not, you have so much information whether or not whether it is donald trump jr. meeting with russians to get dirt on hillary, whether it is jared kushner looking for some sort of weird back channel to the russians, all roads lead back to russia. from a counterintelligence perspective, that's what's con...

Into context from an operational perspective. >> again, this is happening during the transition, does it undercut the idea of collusion and that russia had deep rooted ties to the trump campaign during the campaign itself? >> well, it does in a sense. i suppose you could look at it this way. speculation on my part. but i will say this. they played both sides. the russian intel service, the people involved in this effort, they've been promoted an they're you know, they've done a very good job from their per specktive and played the democrats and republicans. so you know, again, carry out the in...

Russians were up to. the first is the light side. you have the lawyer vest veselnitskaya ka with. and magnitsky which is shorthand for the adoption issue. that's the light side. the dark side is that the russian government knew these people were getting into a high level meeting with a lot of senior trump people were present and using the people as cut outs to see whether or not the trump campaign in the person of donald trump junior and everybody else in the room as part of the team were interested in playing ball. would you take some information if we provided it to you? would you be willing...

If that's not collusion it's pretty close. but there is two possible variations as to what the russians were up to. the first is the light side. you have the lawyer veselnitskaya, kaveladze, guys like that who say here's an opportunity to get in at the high level and talk about sanctions associated with magnitsky, which is shorthand for -- you know, for the adoption issue. that's the light side. the darker side is that the russian government knew these people were going to get into a very high-level meeting where a lot of senior trump people were present and they were using these people as cut...