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Credibility issue. in fact, he does. don junior testified under oath about this. the president talked about it. we haven't heard michael cohen talk about it, and so there's no way right now for us to measure his credibility. and in terms of the phone call, i would expect that don junior and his dad are probably talking multiple times a day about lots of different things. so, you know, the first point is maybe cohen is telling the truth, or maybe he's not telling the truth. but we're not in a position yet to be able to judge that. >> but here's how you would know, ross, right? if this part is t...

Because when you look at the calls to the blocked numbers, when you look at other aspects of the timeline, donald trump. >> that's how donald trump's number showed up. >> he said i'm going to have an announcement in a couple of days. when you look at all of that, and you stack it up, it is impossible, i this i, for any sane person to believe donald trump did not know about this meeting. >> to play it in a court of public opinion, if it goes one way or the other, we know that michael cohen, even though they're saying that the cohen people didn't do this, michael cohen understands that if he pla...

>> that may be what's going on. >> it could be. >> that may well be what's going on. >> so as i have been reminded, jim, that michael cohen did say he handled the whole stormy daniels thing on his own without knowledge of the president, and that turned out not to be true, how much damage can be done here to the president, jim, by michael cohen? >> well, it's a fair question. and listen, the credibility issue is a reasonable one, right? because you have evidence of misleading statements on both sides, right? certainly from the president's team and also from michael cohen in the past, including ...

Father? >> well, i don't know. but what i'm saying is that can corroborate or not corroborate michael cohen's statement. >> maybe, maybe not. >> so if that number -- well, if the numbers were to his father. >> well, then yes. >> and you have cohen also timing it, that would be a corroboration. so i'm saying there are ways to do that. >> all right. so let's bounce it to ross. what do you make of this at the outset? do you think this would be something if this is all true, and cohen goes in and this is what he tells mueller, how big a deal do you think its? >> look, i can understand rudy giulian...

That, chris. >> we'll see, right. we'll see if mueller wants to take the meeting. if he wants to hear. >> i don't know why he wouldn't take the hearing. he would want to hear it. but then can he corroborate it? if he can't it's useless. >> you said earlier he may want this. >> you still want to hear it what he has to say. but as far as i can tell from the record, it is not corroborated by anything. in fact, it's disputed. >> all right. here's your problem. okay. and this will get us into the earlier scoop we had in the week. michael cohen has a credibility issue. stip layed for the point of ar...