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>> just a follow-up on that, mark, it's the obstruction charge, right? this is all obstruction or what it sounds like in full flower at many stages of the game, at many stagesof this legal saga, trump is acting as a road block, effectively, for what is to be done correctly by the letter of the law, is that right? >> there is no doubt, in my mind, that if once contacted by the national archives, when it was learned that documents were missing at the white house, original classified records, that if they had, even after a period of weeks, maybe months, said, we thought we could take them, for wh...

Case or the pence case. and how hard is it to prov obstruction? >> normally, stephanie, it i very difficult to prov obstruction because what you have to establish is someone's intention and their frame of mind in this case, however, donal trump has made it excessivel easy for jack smith because of the timeline he had repeated notices, and during the stretches after h received notice, that's wher you start to get his intention and it becomes more clear as t what he really wanted to do an what he wanted to avoid. there is an important point to make here, however as we see jack smith movin closer...

A principled approach to this, i believe this is the kind of fight that pence will take to the supreme court. there is a parallel case going on right now in d.c. circuit court with scott perry, and that, i think, will be instructive unhelpful's case might move forward. this is purely political, and he just wants to appear as he is not doing the bidding of jack smith so that he might get more votes in a republican primary, then i think you might see him fight it only up to a certain point, so he can say to his base, that's it, i tried to contest it but now i am being forced to testify, and he j...

Pence? >> i think he is probably handling it the right way. glad to be with both of you here on the set. he has handled it the right way by saying he is responsible and he is responsible for this, and he has allowed them to come to the home to do a search. i think on a grander scale, it has probably bigger implications what may be going on with the trump documents case. the pence case and the biden case are completely different than the trump case but there is no way that there is not some overlap and correlation. that will be in the back of the prosecutor's minds as they think about what was ...

Adversarial way. >> the other big question that has loomed at all of this is the other piece of the pattern here. will the doj believe that it's necessary to also appoint a special counsel in the pence case as they did with biden and with trump? >> well, it's unclear at this point if they think that they need to do that. with former president trump the trigger that attorney general garland said made him make the decision to appoint the special counsel was because the former president announced his candidacy for future re-election, so that was a significant factor in appointing the special coun...