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defending him. they have been the ones who have stepped up and have talked about trump because they know it is what the voters want to hear about. and when they talk about him, it has been mostly to defend him. so, it will be very interesting to hear if this is a turning point in the campaign, if these other candidates see this as an opportunity to change the conversation, turn the conversation through something, else change the subject, or if they are still going to be talking about what it is that they think voters wanted to hear. because, to this point, what they have not voters have wanted to hear has been, mainly, a pro-trump message, a message about trump's victimization rather than a message about trump's guilt. >> mark, people are often obviously visual, and the entire television medium is about that. and a debate no exception -- fox has now just released the podium lineup. and here is a bingo card you might not have had six months ago, maybe even three months ago. center stage is governor ron desantis and also vivek ramaswamy.
and fox has now released the podium lineup. and here's a bingo card you might not have had, six months ago, three months ago. center stage is governor ron desantis and swami. what do you make of where everyone is standing? >> well, that's interesting. the net of this is everybody on that stage understands, this is the first, best and maybe last opportunity to make an impression and change the equation. the fact that desantis and ron, it's not a college debate. it's how you perform against expectations. people don't know him. they're unfamiliar with him.