up to the supreme court if, in fact, that happens, karen. >> you know, it's interesting. because one of the things that i always do with my client is -- it's a strategy, right? throw me under the bus. i'm the bad guy, i'm the one telling you, right, that i don't want you to do this. all right? so you can say to everyone that you want to testify. that you want to give testimony. i'm telling you as your attorney i don't want to do it. so you can tell everybody and throw me under the bus and say it's your attorney who doesn't want you to do it. and it seems like that's what's going on here. right? the president wants to -- listen, he's the president of the united states. he wants the citizens of the united states -- or is this, you know, a defense strategy. and it's something that attorneys do auto of the time. i'm the bad guy. tell them you have an attorney. tell them you really want to talk to them. but your attorney won't let you. >> so is this a sekulow/guiliani good guy/bad guy situation? >> it's a good strategy. >> the reason this has never been tested, other presidents submit themselves to the rule of