and pogo has documents showing he signed into place the separation policy. i just think -- i can't say it enough. we have to remember the numbers are going up. and the reason the numbers are going up are not because of some crazy phenomenon we've never seen before. donald trump and his policy and rhetoric are encouraging people in some cases, forcing people in other cases, to cross the border illegally. we saw it at the end of the obama administration. >> doesn't that help his argument for the wall. when democrats say a wall won't work and people run for the border because the wall is coming. >> they keep coming. deterrence doesn't work. clbts put in the first waves of walls walls and infrastructure and it does slow people down they come in dangerous places and in the last couple of months, there are real consequences of deterrence-based immigration. and there has to be a broader conversation about going down to the northern triangle countries and secretary nielsen did