this is done. and this is over. and there is nothing that can be done, that tax money has been spent. this program has been opened and closed. but what do you think can be learned about the transparency of cia operating processes and the chain of command internally? obviously, the public shouldn't know who they are hiring at this time they are doing it, but what needs to change? >> well, i think what needs to change is -- and i'm hoping the cia is doing this while they're kind of running defense. i hope they're also looking at this and saying how did this happen? how did we end up here? what is the process by which we ended up in this situation? and that's why -- i mean, it's like a plane crash. this seems to me like a train wreck or a plain crash, and the first thing you want to do is how it happened. and therefore you don't want it to happen again. >> at the same time, i do think it's important to point out that many people say, look, this is vilifying the cia, vilifying people that risk their lives to protect us. to say -- >> it's not vilifying -- i'm