matter if it's an indictment, no matter if you hear it on tape, we just change the channel. >> can you get into the minds? what do they get? >> i think it's some kind of narcicisstic desire to be something other than what people are. people feel -- they feel put upon because they feel inadequate. here makes them feel like he's part of something bigger. and he sucks them all in, and then when somebody challenges that, they get very, very defensive. because deep down, part of them really knows that they have been fooled and they're being conned, and they can't admit that, which makes them dig even deeper and turn out facts and reality even more. and that's the stage we have reached where a large section of the republican base. >> kimberly, at the same time, you have judges who are trying -- and lawyers and people in the system, trying to maintain a dignified judicial