but, again, nothing surprising about this given what trump has campaigned on and what his values were coming into washington and wanted to shake things up. >> but is that what drain the swamp means, errol. is that it or just all the corruption that not even lobbyists -- >> look, politically speaking, drain the swamp means do something to push back the influence of the lobbyists. so, you can do that a number of different ways. so, in this case, you have one particular configuration. now, does that mean lobbyists are going to be absent? if you have lobbyists running your transition committees, which is what donald trump has, they'll set the framework and hire all the people and maybe their work is done and they don't need to dirty their hands with serving in the administration. they picked all the people who are now beholden to them to have those jobs in the administration. >> different kinds of swamps, aren't there? there is a swamp that is filled with lobbyists and then a swamp you could conceive of a swamp filled with family members, couldn't you?