i never bet against van, but i don't know that i'm that optimistic about prison reform. i know i'm not optimistic about sentencing reform, the things eric holder put into place and loretta lynch put into place, those things are not going to be followed through. so the real systemic challenge to the incarceration of people. especially people of color. is not being changed here. >> van, go ahead. >> i think that you are right on the sentencing question. but i think on prison reform i think you will see more of this in large part because jared kushner, i disagree with him on 99 things, but prisons are not one. jared kushner is proving to be an advocate inside that building and i think that's a positive thing. >> how do you decide then, if you don't go through a process? i guess that's part of the pardoning powers. >> i would recommend a process.