because there wasn't a full debrief. you can't -- this goes back to truth isn't truth. you can't have both of those things be accurate. >> truth is not on the president's side. truth is not on rudy's side. all they can do is create confusion and try to create alternative facts. if we go back to inauguration weekend, alternative facts. the end of the road is truth isn't truth. that's the plan. that's the strategy. to the extent there's a strategy at all. >> i think two things we should note. one is, rudy and the president, they are talking to the president's supporters. that's first. the second is, there is a kernel of truth in what rudy said. the three of us can walk away with different recollections of a meeting, different senses, different perceptions. assuming we're both telling the truth, trying to tell the truth, which version is the truth? who knows? i think there's a seed of the right idea there. >> does trump earn the benefit of the doubt at this point? does rudy giuliani earn the