sometimes it's beyond a reasonable doubt, which by the way is a damn high standard. but, bakari, sometimes you will say one thing. i say another. one of us is right, and one of us is wrong. >> yeah, i don't understand where all of a sudden we don't know the definition of truth anymore. i think that ken is not quite portraying what this investigation actually is, and i think rudy giuliani, although he's really shown himself to be inartful and a poorly disciplined attorney who has no idea what the facts of his client's case are, what we're seeing right now is that this president, not only does he have trouble telling the truth, but he has trouble defining what truth is. i mean we live in a realm where we're talking about alternative facts. but in this case it's not just comey versus trump. i think that's where ken and the president and rudy get it wrong. it's not just comey versus trump. it's the words of cohen. it's the words of mcgahn. it's these investigators who