there's a massive reduction in consumption and changing how we travel, et cetera, et cetera is going to involve a whole new round of investment and accumulation. >> but you're reducing your technological frontier. that's the end of your case. >> no, you're not reducing your technological. you are pushing it out. >> you are able to do this but if you don't allow yourself to do carbon, that's a technology that you're taking off the table and any time you take technology off the table, your overall growth -- >> there's another analogy here. >> you're replacing it with something else. >> juliet? >> the main point i want to make is fixating on growth can overlock political questions of power. >> correct. >> who is being challenged, the fossil fuel. >> and distribution and i do think the key issue in western industrialized economy is -- >> can i say something, please? >> juliet, yes. >> the first thing, to