it's not going to solve everything to have him step aside but it is the right thing to do. >> that may be the case. and i -- in some ways i personally reserve judgment because i feel like i don't know what the underlying problem is yet. let's say shinseki comes out tomorrow and resigns, 8:30 in the morning he's scheduled to give a talk. let's say he resigns. what's the day two plan of attack here? i mean, i still don't understand what the problem is that has led apparently to 42 different facilities cooking the books because they could not meet the demand. >> yeah, and look, there's deep underlying problems here. the va has been under enormous pressure for a very long time to fix these incredible wait list that's have -- by the way, shinseki gets a lot of credit. you know, those wait lists are because he said we're going to serve these veterans well, and not just these veterans, iraq and afghanistan, but you know, agent orange in vietnam, pts, we're going to deal with that. he gets a lot of credit for that. but they've been under a huge amount of pressure, which does not excuse a culture. and what we're talking about, chris, and this is why shinseki is important, is a culture. what do the senior people do