cooperate against the president he could prove a very valuable witness in terms of incriminating the president, putting him -- you know, talking about what kind of knowledge he might have about the june 9th trump tower meeting. if he has a deal that doesn't include cooperation you'll see a very slightly reduced prison sentence. bob mueller holds all the cards here. there's no reason he has to give manafort a generous deal if he doesn't fully cooperate. most people in this situation are rational actors. they will choose the path that gets them the shortest jail sentence or the shortest combination of short jail sentence and a low fine. if manafort doesn't take the path that gives him the lowest possible jail sentence, and that would be cooperation, it leads you conclude he has another path available to him. the only rational thing you could see that to be is a pardon. >> you're nodding your head, maya. >> i absolutely agree with matt. look, we know giuliani initiated the conversations with trump after hearing trump's public statements around a pardon for