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play a role, they pretend to be a high—level government insider, and other people online kind of play along and pretend to believe him, but don't really. and the idea is that qanon sort ofjumped out of this niche portion of the internet where people kind of knew what was going on, and on to the mainstream internet, if you like, facebook, youtube, where people weren't so savvy, and so they started believing this kind of outlandish stuff. whoever started it, we think that it ended up at least being controlled by this slightly strange father and son duo called jim and ron watkins. jim's the father and ron's the son. jim watkins bought this website, 8kun — 8chan, and then became 8kun — and his son was a sort of computer programmer. and we think that, in the latter months and years of qanon, they were the ones who were controlling it. and certainly, in the course of researching my podcast, there was evidence that we uncovered, and other people uncovered, that people in the trump orbit,