heard the president and other of his advisers essentially say they don't even really know who these people are. but, again, i think the time we talked about giuliani, right? he is the tie to all of this, right. people are obviously engaging with giuliani at various times and the president obviously telling people that giuliani is the point person. so this idea that they can sort of insulate giuliani from the president, that giuliani isn't directly representing what the president wants in this -- some call it scheme, quid pro quo, in terms of the holdup of the money and the deliverable from zelensky and the ukraines. it's very hard to separate the president from this given what giuliani has said and given that the president over and over again says talk to rudy, talk to rudy. he is the point guy on this. >> you know, there is this very interesting parallel between what went on with the money to stormy daniels and karen mcdougal before the end of the campaign.