think she was right. maybe she's wrong, maybe there's a gray area where does the spring pop or not pop or something that's nuanced. because then it gets to the question of, let's say they stopped him, they found the knife. you have to prove, don't you, that the officer knew the knife, for a fact. if there's a gray area that the officer may have thought that knife was illegal, even if he's wrong, the arrest is still justified, isn't it? >> absolutely. you have to set the whole case up to understand what was going on. the lieutenant and the two other officers are on bike patrol. they see freddie gray running suddenly. so they pursue him. now they're within their rights to do that. he's in a high-crime neighborhood. when they stop him, though to handcuff him and take him to the station, they have to have a crime. so the knife becomes very very important. and remember two of those officers are working for the lieutenant. they're going to come in and say, the lieutenant said there were grounds to make an arrest how can you blame us? there go two cops in the