e-mail, his family's e-mails. >> holder is not a sitting president, okay? again -- >> he works for the administration. >> not exactly. the state department doesn't exactly work -- the department of justice doesn't exactly work that way. ostensibly operates independently of the president and of course we know there's connections there. but let's not overstate those connections. >> but if you say of course we know there are connections and everyone does know there are connections, how far can you stretch the line of credibility? let me ask you this, margaret. where literally, the president can say i had nothing to do with any of these scandals. >> until you can prove and look, again, americans are smart and willing to reserve judgment. bill clinton had very high approval ratings in terms of his performance as president, even though the american people felt that morally, he was -- >> a scumbag. use the technical term. >> ronald reagan, again, the teflon president. why? even though all the iran contrastuff was breaking in his second term, he was considered this happy lawyer. people liked him personally. people are able to separate thou they feel about someone