congress later overrode the veto. what do you remember about that very divisive time, the '80s when apartheid was such a heated debate all over the country but especially on college campuses? >> well, the u.s. chose de klerk and botha and the apartheid regime as our ally. i can hear kissinger saying now iran and the shah and botha and de klerk [ inaudible ]. and therefore, the apartheid is an internal problem. it had no moral standing in the world so people began to rebel against it. but clearly, president reagan and u.s. policy was pro-white south africa and really, mr. mandela was on the terrorist list until july 1st, 2008, taken off by president george bush. until 2008 he was still on the terrorist list. >> he said some things that were