needed to get out of washington more and people laughed at -- i remember people laughed, i saw some tweets about that, i saw some conservative articles, but the reality is that the president and the vice president are correct. they have to get out and meet the people where they are. joe biden in my opinion, and i might be biased here, is one of the greatest retail politicians currently out there right now and he knows that, but he has not been able to do that. i think that the white house is looking for a strategy that allows them to do that, but also under the constraints of covid and they obviously haven't found the right mix yet, but that's where we are right now in this day and age. >> i hear that and symone, i'm curious, i mean, are they being too cautious with the president's ability to meet people? >> well, i think the president has been actively on the ground, i think -- there are some people out there that will say, oh, the president should be on the road every week and he should be out there selling the agenda, but then some of those same people, chuck, i watched "meet the