live, or for that matter, our own national security. in the middle east a powderkeg with the spark of revolution lit. >> that brings people out in the streets and really brings temperatures to the boiling point. >> the saudis are not going to tolerate much. >> they're using weapons we gave them against some of these democracy groups. today, tackling perhaps the most solvable of our nation's trillion dollar problems. there is a way, but until now, there hasn't been a will. >> utilities got to 34% efficiency when eisenhower was in the white house. they're still at the same level today. >> get ready for steel on wheels in america's heartland as we trackle the energy crisis. >> live from oklahoma city, the show starts right now. and a lovely albeit cloudy afternoon here in oklahoma city, oklahoma. 35 right noon to you from the here in oklahoma city. it is nice to see you. thank you for giving us a piece of your afternoon to have this conversation. we are here, among the truckers who like the rest of us are feeling the effects of the energy crisis in this country. even the president today adm admitting it's a crisis we can noonr igre >>e cnoeeoi fom oc wn s prices go up, to trance when they go back down. we can't when gas prices are high and hit the snooze button when they fall again form the united states of america cannot afford to bet our long-term prosperity, our long-term security on a resource that will eventually run out. >> whether it's the massive unrest in the middle east, or for that matter, the nuclear mess that continues to unfold before all of our eyes in japan, all over the world events are being spun as the reasons why we're all paying more for less when it comes to energy. but the truth is these events should be catalysts for change to move us toward alternatives that are both safer and more efficient. our three-day energy summit kicks off in oklahoma today, because throughout the different steel on wheels tours all over this country, we have discovered that energy may be the $1 trillion problem, whether it seems to be an incentive to find solution and the technology to get it done from industrialists to environmentalists. and that is what we will be doing for the rest of this weeks. here at this struck stop and in our shows tomorrow and in friday friday, lives from osu, oklahoma state, not to mention or live streaming town hall tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern time at steelontwheels.com and msnbc.com, and a number of other streaming partners, including dullenratigan.com. brad, am i wrong at looking at everything that energy is we have the political will, it is industrial will, and the environmental will and my goodness me, a heck of a reason to get after it? >> we certainly have the reason to get after it. whether we have the will or not is to be determined. president obama's speech was in the good direction, but hopefully this can be the opportunity. >> why this long in the first place? >> we've had a lot of disputes about what we need to do. when oil prices go don, when energy fad io memo, people n'ha t imperative. this is a good chance for us to do something about it. >> we talked about this when woerp at the hoover dam is how incredibly inefficient we are as a country in our houses, in our cars, in our trucks, and most startling to me, in our power generation facilities, where we make or electricity. i've got this gas can here as a prop. gas is used primarily as a transportation fuel, you put it in your car. most of our electricity is obviously made with coal or natural gas or hydro, whatever it might be, but the fact of the matter is, and we had it in the open. 90% of official, 90% of the fuel burned into japan gets turned into electricity. 85% of the electricity or the fuel burned in germany gets turned into electricity. it's only 35% in our country, two thirds of what is in this gas can gets wasted as rad yapt heat and just gets tossed out. i didn't mean to throw that so far. that was a bit more dramatic than intended. i get worked up. does the technology exist? >> the technology exists to improve that number from 35%. there's always some inefficiencies in converting the energy, but we can do better than that. europe is a very rich area, very rich countries. we use twice per capita the energy we do, so if we organize our engines in better ways, if we recon figure the way we live, use better fuels than what we use today, i think we could. >> but the technology is there to improve it, yes, some. >> the will, however, doesn't seem to be there, which brings me to my third question, as long as oil is dhaep, as long as the cost of the wars is not reflected in 9 cost of a gallon of gasoline we did our own math, it gets you to about $14 a gallon the actual cost when you use military and environment. mike milken was saying the other day, because of the unholy alliance between business and stchange. is that too cynical of an interpretation. >> i don't think there's a manipulation. i think the fact is there's not a real alternative to oil. it's easy to transport and powerful, so until we have better engines for cng or lng, we develop battery vehicles, oil is a great fuel, and that's why we use it and that's why people who produce oil have a lot of power over us. stay with me for a second. i want to bring someone else into the conversation. one of the president's goals today was -- >> we've got to discover and produce cleaner renewable sources of energy, but also produce less carbon pollution, which is threatening our climate. we've got to do it quickly. >> well, there are parts of america where that transition is already happening. most prominently southern california and los angeles. mayor villaraigosa joins us. he's already moved to vehicles in his city. mr. mayor, tell us exactly what you have done. >> in our city and county, we have the cleanest fuel fleet in the world. the largest clean fuel fleet in the world, 100% cng. i just put a motion across to go to zero emissions so that our new purchases will be zero emissions buses. in the city of los angeles, in our department of water and power, we use about 20% of our fuel sources, our alternative fuels, and very importantly we're conserving 19 times the energy we used to five years ago. >> wow. what has it done to the smog problem in a town that's probably the most famously smoggy town in america? >> it's still famously smoggy, which is why the president's speech today was music to my ears. certainly very important goal for us to move away from our over-reliance on foreign oil, to move away to capture new energy sources, so as you say, use the technology we have now, develop new technologies, create green jobs of the future, and we're focused on that in los angeles precisely because, for a los angeles long time we've been a city at the top when it comes to dirty air we have a plan to double our rail system, we want to take that plan national, an effort to really accelerate investment in infrastructure, particularly in public transit. >> who is paying for it? >> locality would pay for it, and the federal government would loan and/or bon bond, krael -- this is a great way for us to invest in public transportation, reduce our carbon footprint. in l.a. alone it would reduce our carbon footprint by 500,000 pounds a year, save 10 million gallons of gas a year. >> it's one thing to be able to transition a city like yours, you've got a centralize the fueling station for the garb an trucks, for the buses. you can fuel them up there. how do we get from municipal transportation like what you have to get natural gas or other alternative fuels to truck stops like the one i'm at across this country? today we're at 20%. the fact is that working with the federal government, if president obama could get bipartisan support for this new energy security policy that takes us away from an overreliance on foreign oil, ke with create smart grid smgs, invest and incentivize cities, counties and stays to do more in terms of greening the planet, but importantly developing the technology and the jobs that come with it. >> i was taking to brad carson before you joined us, swe love to talk about the millions and billions, we only have a few in the trillions. military, health care, national defense. do you agree that energy has the most capital now? >> i agree it's the area were there's the greatest toont. i'd like to see more bipartisan support for what president obama articulated today. the fact is, every president, democrat and republican over the last four decades have talked about our addiction to oil we've got to develop our energy sources here, whether it's wind or solar, biomatt or some of the other sources that the president talked about today. there's a way to do that. >> yeah, listen, mr. mayor, we congratulate you on leading the way. obviously you had a compelling region. and the incredible population you're dealing with. we compliment you on your efforts. >> listen, thank you. well, get what the other half is. you dewith china and olympic, you've dealt with the american trade deficit. lots more ahead on this definition. what the trucker here told us this morning about the cost of doing business. how does 900 a tank for a $1,000 job sound? also, the quest for a better, smarter, safer nuclear technology, but first the politics of the president's new energy plan. is it a good plan? and can he pull it off? libya, new debate about arming the rebels against gadhafi. how is that for some not war? the steel on wheels tour rolls on here. ♪ we could've gone a more traditional route... ... but it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable. ♪ looking for a simple way to help lower your cholesterol? try benecol spread - a heart healthy alternative to butter. benecol contains an ingredient that helps block cholesterol absorption and has a delicious, buttery taste. make benecol part of your healthy lifestyle. politicians of every stripe have promised energy independence, but that promise has so far gone unmet. >> that's the president talking about the issue that brought us to oklahoma city today, energy, america, national security, jobs, trade deficit, all tied directly to that single issue. talk about killing a few birds with one stone. today he called for more domestic drilling, more domestic gas, more ethanol, more hybrid and electric cars. but are politicians in washington ready to stop bickering and finally solved our energy crisis in a way that's rational? kind of like an engineer would solve the program. joining us is host of the npr's left, right and center, like with dave wigle. a couple folks who have been touring the country with me. nice to see you guys. we survived the winter run. they wouldn't take us seriously if we sat around in sun and palm trees. dave, your thoughts on the president today? >> i think he didn't go as far as he's talked about energy in the past. i looked at the nuclear energy in the speech. it was something he went pretty far on. actually markie, the capital and trade bill that didn't get anywhere last year, that was all about expanding nuclear power. and this time we're studying it. they weren't serus anerfo supply, icis mo ofhe speech was. not a lot about conservation for supply, nothing really krit w l wall. >> matt? >> i think there's nothing new in the speech. he says that. reissuing the blueprint that he issued two years ago. the thing i admire about the president, he's kind of a pundit on or abouting his own presidency. when he says every president since nixon, blah, blah, blah has said we've made zero progress. i'm afraid we'll see that happen with the next president saying that, including president obama in this trail, unless we get serious in a way that we aren't today. >> but that's exactly it. we know the politicians aren't going to today it. they've had decades to do it, they haven't done it, until we, the media, and more importantly we the american people look at the polls. theft more public transportation. and yes there's no mobilization, no imbalance, no pressure. >> but the american people also want the entitlement that no one talks about, which is thaep gasoline. remember, people in europe pay $8 a gallon, $9 a gallon. >> they say it's $13, $14 a gallon. >> and national security stuff, but we're the only country that doesn't say let's put a tack on gaes lien that's higher. >> what if we funded the pentagon with the cost of the pentagon in the middle east by charging it to the gasoline consumer? that's how the military is securing our assets. >> my own sense until we have a significantly higher price on gasoli gasoline, we won't create the market incentives to move beyond oil, and there's a way to do it that doesn't hit people's pocket books. if you do what's called tax and dividend, raise the gas taxes, but then cut payroll taxes so virtually all americans would essentially be a wash, it could krael the market incense ivs, and people left and the right. support things like that, a carbon tax, a payroll tax swap. that to me is the beginning of wisdom on that. >> the president talked about that once, and stephen chu talked about it once. those are propaganda items recycled every time we have a conversation about radical change. you can't really get past that part of the conversation. >> at the end of the day, it's not that obama wants your gas prices. it's democrats, republicans, oil companies, gas, banks have been keeping gas low by not charging you for the military, by not charging you for the environment, and the politicians keep their jobs by keeping gas low, and the unholy alliance between business and state perpetuates itself. obviously you wouldn't want to move it to $14 a gallon today, but why not come up with a ten-year plan and say over the next ten years we're going to find out how to frac safely, and we're going to incrementally start to charge the world the real cost of what gasoline is, as opposed to letting us live in this fantasy-land. >> i'm for a ten-year phasing, but i think you have to offset the increase with a cut some something like a payroll tax to sell it to average americans as a way to get our energy policy right, but not destroy them financially. >> i think everybody agrees with that, bhe potil ploitaon evetios upwhvethe prident is, i don't care who's in the chair, he wants to raise your gas prices, and i won't. that's a good political prop, even though it's destructive to the company. >> president obama reminded the country of 2008. he said that was unserious. so obama has that within him. simplts maybe after the presidential election. the next topic, civil war in libya, which is really the same topic. in libya want a supplier to western europe, i suspect they wouldn't be as interesting a country for not war. the rebels retreating after an offensive launched by gadhafi's troops. the big question now, in world capitals in washington to paris, should we arm the rebels? >> what it appears the rebels need is military equipment, some of their equipment dates back to world war ii. are you ruling out u.s. military hardware assistance in. >> i'm ruling it out, but also not ruling it in. we're still making an assessment, partly about what gadhafi's forces will be doing. reuters reporting that the president has signed a secret order -- how secret it is, i don't know -- authorizing covert support for libyan rebels. what exactly that means, your guess is as good as mine. maybe weapons, maybe training, maybe both. no confirmation as yet from msnbc. first after, am i too cynical in saying, listen, our first interest in the middle east is energy, the reasons the western europeans are so loud is because they get a lot of oil from libya. >> i think that's too cynical. joe pretend to know the full answer, but i think obama will be judged ultimately on whether gadhafi is gone when the dust clears. anything we have to do quietly or publicly will redowned to his benefit. >> are we escalating a war here? >> the white house hasn't actually gone that far. they keep adding to the buy-in every time they get pushed on whether we're willing to commit ground troops. in the senate yesterday, the this could be there for two years. i mean, there's an increasing level of's to deal with thinks energy problems. >> i hope they are, but we'll see. we've been through crisis after crisis. after the third-party revolution, all this will be different. >> i like it. thank you for joining us over the past few months. thanks, guys. >> thank you. >> i do think personally we can do more. in fact, a lot more. efficiency alone is a frontier -- check out my block today where i outline how we can krael clean in sources, i don't care where you are, industrialists, environmentalists, how we build a coalition to fight the banks and oil companies that want and profit from maintaining the status quo when it comes to energy in this country. just ahead, what the truckers here told us about gag prices and their bottom line. the guys on the front lines, right after this. to save me a boatload of money on my mortgage, that would be awesome! sure. like that will happen. don't just think about it. spend 10 minutes at lending tree and save up to $272 a month. oh. ooh. happy birthday todd. it's for a cough... from allergies... [ male announcer ] halls relieves coughs and sore throats due to allergies too. now you know. we've converted one of our locations to cng and compressed natural gas. government incentives are a big reason why we would convert or not. >> that the love's family on the future of energy perhaps, but right now the stark reality is truckers are paying more than they ever have, in some cases so are you. ♪ roll me away ♪ roll me away tonight >> what is you hauling? >> co2. >> what are you paying? almost $4. i've been driving about 15 years on 1,000-mile run i spend like $900 something. >> i hate the cost of fuel. >> how many days a year do you spend on the road? >> 365. >> all the time? >> all the time. >> this is where you live? >> yes. >> how many days a year do you spend on the road? >> oh, probably about 340. >> it's tough to make it outnk truck drivers make a lot of money. there's a lot of times i don't get a paycheck for two, three weeks in a row. fuel is eating my lunch. >> at the end of the day the cost of fuel in the truck ends up where? >> ends up to the customer. >> ends up in the cost of my chicken. so the cost of my chicken goes up because othe fuel for this truck? >> because of the fuel. >> even knocked or trucks down to 60 miles an hour. >> really just driving slower to burn let. >> that's right. >> would you consider alternative fuels if they were cheaper? >> i'm sure the companies would. >> you run on any alternative. >> if it will put in a truck and run just as good as this, yeah. >> as long as it's cheaper. >> right. >> would you pay more for fuel if you knew it meant it would end all the wars in the middle east? >> i don't see how i could afford it. it's so high now i can't afford it. >> more from the love's family truck stop right here in oklahoma city, as steel on wheels rolls on. ♪ roll across the high plains ♪ deep into the mountains noo even though i'm a great driver, and he's... not so much. well, for a driver like you, i would recommend our new snapshot discount. this little baby keeps track of your great driving habits, so you can save money. [sighs] amazing. it's like an extra bonus savings. [ cackling ] he's my ride home. how much can the snapshot sce heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib? if so, now's the time to talk to your doctor again, even if you're already taking medication to reduce your stroke risk. atrial fibrillation can cause a blood clot to form here, in your heart, that can break free and go straight to your brain, where it can cause a serious stroke. strokes that are twice as likely to be deadly or severely disabling as other types of strokes. but if you're one