this. >> well, you're right, joshua. it's actually pretty rare for judges to impose sanctions on lawyers. and i think it's because they want to give lawyers a lot of leeway to try out theories. um -- and to develop their cases. but in a case like this, where as the judge said all of the so-called evidence was simply based on speculation and conjecture. there was no basis for this lawsuit. and i think we often use the phrase frivolous lawsuits which is what the law prohibits. the -- the sanctions rules. this lawsuit was beyond frivolous. as judge parker wrote in the language that you cited, it was much more sinister than that. the goal here wasn't simply to file, in good faith, a lawsuit. but to undermine public confidence in the outcome of the election. it was really just to establish another talking point that president trump and his allies could hang their hat on in trying to spread the big lie. >> so help me understand this as a non-attorney. where is the line? i mean, we -- we've all heard that expression you can sue a