Donald trump, the Gingerbread Man. Although the title may seem like a hilarious comedy, this is hardly a laughing matter. In fact, this is not inspired by real events, but rather based on actual occurrences and real facts. Now, in 2023, donald trump, the former president of the United States, and the current frontrunner for the republican nomination, was indicted 4 times. He was charged with 91 felony counts, he set for 2 trials, was hit with a multi Million Dollar civil verdict, and he took the mugshots scene around the world. Hes now been removed from the primary ballot in 2 different states. It almost makes you wonder whether hes more busy now than he was when he was actually the commander in chief. With the new year, donald trump faces 5 separate trials and verdicts in 2 civil cases that threaten both his Bank Accounts and his businesses. All the while, hes also facing the jury that we havent even talked about. The american electorate. But for as long as Donald J Trump has dominated american politics, and even prior to that, hes been the proverbial Gingerbread Man and dodged accountability. Now lets go back, way back, to 2017. Now listen, i get it. This feels like an insurrection several impeachments ago. But please, bear with me. Were going somewhere. Remember Robert Muellers investigation into the russian interference case around the 2016 election . The Mueller Probe focused on possible coordination between Trump Associates and the kremlin, and also whether trump obstructed justice when he promptly fired fbi director james cool me. The president that i had had multiple conversations about my job, both before and after he took office. And he had repeatedly told me i was doing a great job, and he hoped i would stay. So it confused me when i saw On Television the president saying that he actually fired me because of the russia investigation. And learned again from the media that he was telling privately other parties that my firing had relieved great pressure on the russia investigation. Russia, russia, russia. They found that the russian government did in fact meddle in the 2016 election. Ultimately, however, he found no evidence that Trumps Campaign coordinated with russia, but even in doing that, he fell that he would exonerate the president. The report laid out multiple episodes in which trump directed others to influence or curtailed the russia investigation. In 2019, donald trump was hit with his first impeachment. It centered around a phone call with the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyy, in which trump pressured the new leader to announce investigations into trumps political rivals. At the same time, trump was withholding 400 Million Dollars and Critical Military aid to ukraine. Weve heard a lot about trumps various phone calls, but this was the first one for him to introduce the i did nothing wrong, it was a perfect call, it was a beautiful call. The mantra that has since become one of his staples. The house impeached trump for abuse of power, and obstruction of congress. Hardly a ringing endorsement. But he was acquitted in the senate because, well, politics. And so he continued on in the white house. Catch him if he can. Hes the Gingerbread Man. Now, what do you think happens to someone whose persona was already built on being untouchable, when they escape accountability . Spoiler alert. Their behavior usually doesnt get better. And in that way, donald trump decided to stick to the script. His next set of what the house would deem High Crimes And Misdemeanors occurred on and leading up to january 6th, 2021. Lawmakers voted to charge trump with incitement of insurrection, just one week after a violent mob of pro trump loyalists stormed the u. S. Capital. The house found that trump not only encouraged the riot, but also failed to call it off. Again, he was charged by the house, but not convicted by the senate, because, again, well, politics. And so, with just one week left in his presidency, donald trump became the first u. S. President to be impeached twice. Now, we really could stop here. All of this by itself shudders the scale by any index, in terms of its significance and its absurdity. You, think about it. Weve only had 4 times when a u. S. President has been impeached. And donald trump is half of them. But the house wasnt done with the trump insurrection just yet. The Bipartisan House Select Committee to investigate january 6th would reveal far worse allegations against the president , and a group of coconspirators. After weeks of scathing testimony by trumps principal advisers, white house employees, allies, and even his own daughter, the committee concluded that trump and his Co Conspirators attempted to overturn the 2020 president ial election, and they concluded it in more ways than one. In our hearing tonight, you saw an american president faced with a start and unmistakable choice between right and wrong. There was no ambiguity, no nuance. Donald trump made a purposeful choice to violate his oath of office. To ignore the ongoing violence against Law Enforcement. To threaten our constitutional order. There is no way to excuse that behavior. It was indefensible. The panel voted to refer Donald J Trump for criminal prosecution. That brings us to november of 2022, which acts mid was appointed as Special Counsel to oversee 2 distinct matters. The first, a Criminal Investigation by the Justice Department into efforts to overturn the election. And secondly, a separate investigation into trumps possession of classified documents. Both of jack smiths investigations have led to indictments. Now, if youre wondering at home weather going 02 in terms of avoiding indictments after investigations is bad, i can te it aint good. Now, in june, a federal ground jury invited for illegally holding on to and for trump was subsequently hit with an additional 3 counts. Then, 2 months later, in a a federal grand jury in the Election Interference case indicted trump on 4 counts, alleging he conspired to defraud the u. S. By seeking to illegally subvert the results of the 2020 president ial election. And if all this, everything that ive said already wasnt enough, and your Fulton County d. A. Fani willis and the sweeping r. I. C. O. Case in Fulton County, georgia. D. A. Willis is also investigating trump for Election Interference in her state. Also in august, a grand jury indicted trump and heat 18 others on state charges related to a scheme to overturn the 2020 election. Trump was hit with another 13 charges there. Man, this is a lot. Not to mention, trump has also been facing 2 cases in new york. One of them is a Civil Fraud Trial Against Trump and his businesses. New York Attorney general Leticia James is suing trump for lying about his net worth in order to do blunders. The others, thats a hush money case, where Manhattan District Attorney alvin bragg and his office became the first Law Enforcement entity to criminally indict donald trump, charging him with 34 counts of falsifying Business Records in connection with hush money he paid to Adult Film ActressStormy Daniels back in 2016. Do you guys keep a score at home . Good. Because were still not done. This year, trump was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation against writer dejean carroll. She was awarded 5 Million Dollars in damages, which trump is currently appealing. Carol is suing trump again, for defamation about comments he made about her when he was still president and again after the 5 milliondollar verdict. Now, i should mention, trump claims no wrongdoing in any of the cases i just mentioned. And, to be fair, given his elusive and invasive maneuvers with accountability so far, why would he . Catch me if you can, its the Gingerbread Man. A busy 2024 awaits donald trump indeed. But even as the story continues to right itself in the annals of americas history, will this be the year that donald trump is finally held accountable . Joining me now to unpack all of this is my good friend super lawyer, msnbc legal analyst, and criminal defense attorney danny cevallos, as well as micah woltman, president and ceo of the Brennan Center for justice. Hes also the author of the book, the super majority, the year the Supreme Court divided america. And listen, the last time we were here, you were in studio and we talked. It was before a big game, youve got a couple of days before another big game, and i know that thats why you came to us, to get some good mojo. So were going to start with you. I want to hear your prediction, danny. Is 2020 for the actual year that donald trump gets his comeuppance, or is at least held accountable . Im doing the thing in vegas, like it blackjack. Where you always assume the next card is a 10. Right . And so to that degree, what im doing is im just betting on it delay. So while 2024 may be the year of pretrial accountability, i think 2025 is more likely going to be a real year for accountability, because theres a very real possibility that some of these trials dont even happen until 2025. I definitely think the Fulton County case doesnt get to its first witnesses until 2025. In federal court, normally they move a lot quicker. So youve got 2 federal Criminal Cases. Those might move a little quicker, on the criminal accountability. But of course, political accountability, unquestionably, you cannot continue or adjourn a election date the way you can adjourn a trial date. So in one sense, politically, we will find out if donald trump is accountable next year in 2024 for the election. But in terms of criminal and civil liability, at least criminal liability, we may be waiting until 2025. 2025 may be the year of criminal accountability. But at this point, im just doubling down on all my bets, charles. Michael, lets talk Supreme Court for a moment. Donald trump is going to more likely than not be facing 2 Different Cases that are going to appear before the high court. One, dealing with this Blanket Claim of immunity and that being sort of his home run attempts or his Knockout Punch for everything that hes facing. And then the other, this 14th amendment question. When you look at the composition of the court, what does that tell you about where we are headed . Well, the Supreme Court, as you know, has lurched far to the right with this super majority of highly conservative justices. But interestingly, up until now, they have not gone out of their way to bail donald trump out of all of his legal troubles. They have no choice though, but to address these 2 cases. And to address them at around the same time. The most important one, i think, in the short run, is this question of his claim that hes immune from prosecution because he was once president. Even though the crime involves trying to claim illegally to the presidency. The trial is due to start on march 4th, but it has been put on hold until this legitimate constitutional question has been addressed. Thats actually legally an easy case. He is not eligible for immunity from prosecution. The question is timing. Thats where the colorado case intersects with that, because this ruling in colorado, and now the ruling by an official in maine, the only 2 states where this has happened, saying he cant be on the ballot, thats also got to be addressed by the Supreme Court soon, because theyre Printing Ballots and getting ready for the election. Michael, lets follow up about what you just mentioned, which is that decision in maine by the Secretary Of State there. Do you think that we are likely to see additional states sort of fall in line with that, and what sort of confusion could that potentially create, as we are just weeks away from the beginning of primary season . Theres a real urgent need for clarity nationwide, otherwise you do get a patchwork of rulings using different laws and different standards, and most states, most recently california, have said no, trump gets to stay on the ballot. I think whats really important is that both the maine ruling, but the Colorado Court ruling too, made a very clear case that there wasnt an insurrection attempt, and that donald trump was engaged in it. We all saw it in the january 6th hearings. A real coup attempt, as kind of trial like as it was in many respects. An earnest attempt to overthrow the constitution. The challenge for people who are looking to kick trump off the ballot is that it really isnt clear if it is what lawyers calls self executing. In other words, do you need congress to pass a law or a Court Finding or Something Like that . Those are the questions the court is going to address. And if they want to get rid of that case, they have many avenues to do it. The most important thing, though, is i sure hope they dont use it as an opportunity to say, hey, trump didnt do anything wrong. I think its unlikely that they will. I think the facts are really clear, there across the street in the Supreme Court, and these cases make a very strong factual case about what happened. You know, danny, michael brings up a very good point when we look at the different ways that this could be sort of litigated through and addressed by the Supreme Court. But, we have to realize, donald trump was indicted multiple times on multiple levels this year. This is stunning, this is historic, this is a really big deal. And there is in some sense a feeling of, my gosh. Whats next . Can you sort of really talk about legally, the significance of having a former president being in this space . Because what we have talked about him being a defendant like anyone else, hes really not. And so can you, as a criminal defense attorney, really explain just how big a deal this actually is . Of course its a big deal. We have never had a president twice impeached. Never had a president charged with a crime. There is so many different first here. The main Secretary Of State acknowledges that she is the first Secretary Of State to do what she did through her administrative process. We are going through a number of first. In a sense, and michael might agree with me on, this in a sense because these are so many firsts that possibly to the benefit of donald trump. For example, even though the immunity question, i would agree, is ultimately having to go against trump, there is never a case where donald trump is broadly immune to what he does out of office. Trump is not arguing absolute immunity under all circumstances. What he argued is that he is outside his president ial duties. It seems pretty clear he was acting in regards to his campaign. Because of all these historic and constitutional first, that is what is causing all of this delay. Delay at every level which is why this will move snail like, glacier like, and ran right into that november election. And really the inauguration which, for me, is even more constitutionally complex if donald trump is convicted, possibly even sentenced, and then inaugurated. That is where we get into some novel constitutional questions. Frankly, these new Ballot Access cases i think pose the biggest threat to donald Trumps Campaign. More so, arguably, than the indictments. The indictments have only had polls go up. If he cant be on the ballot, it doesnt matter where hes polling. We are going to need your sage wisdom in a moment. We are going to force you to make legal bats. Both of you stay right there. We are going to continue this conversation after a quick break. Im Charles Coleman junior. Youre watching velshi on msnbc. Well be right back. Ching velshi o msnbc. Well be right back. Well be right back. If you know. You know its pantene. Today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it. Centrum silver is now clinically shown to support Cognitive Health in older adults. Its one more step towards taking charge of your health. So every day, you can say, youuu did it with centrum silver. Every day, more dog people are deciding its time for a fresh approach to pet food. Developed with vets. Made from real meat and veggies. Portioned for your dog. And delivered right to your door. Its smarter, healthier pet food. Heres why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your Devie Duckduckgo comes with a builtn engine like google, but its pi and doesnt spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. And theres no catch. Its fre. We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by download