Transcripts For RT CrossTalk 20221212 : vimarsana.com

to take a picture, go double play. you have to go so good. i m up with a with hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered? i m peter level. what is the possibility of a negotiated end to the conflict in ukraine? there are some indications. nato has shifted its position from total victory on the battlefield to the need of negotiations. at this point, this is unclear. the biggest barrier of course is the lack of trust. ah discuss these issues and more. i m joined by my guess, glen these and in our slow, he s a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book, great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow, we have to meet re bobbitt. she is a political analyst and editor, and he knows me internet media project. hi gentlemen, cross our roles and the fact that means you can jump in time you want. and i always appreciated. ok, so i was going in oslo. glenn, you know, with the over the last week, couple of weeks here with getting a lot of mixed signals out of nato to the point it seems to me looking at their discourse, is that it s turning into a modicum of panic. i m worrying about escalation, the them were the need for negotiation on the rhetoric that ukraine is, winning seems to be fading away. so read the tea leaves for me. what do you, where we are, where are we right now? go ahead. well, in any conflict it s, it s not easy, but it s possible to foresee when each party will be inclined towards negotiating. so for example, when both sides believe they can win this little chance of negotiation. obviously, nano has been quite optimistic that they could, that they could win, which is why a lot of the rhetoric has been very, very wallace, color aggressive. so russia will be defeated on the battlefield as forest. johnson said, you know, bad piece will not be accepted. there so essentially nothing short of a full victory would be acceptable. some even talked about it taking back crimea and you know, so it was very extreme. but now of course, we said that when some change to some extent done that the great an army a suffered vary greatly on the battlefield. now, much of the manpower and the equipment has been exhausted and the ability to supply them is also reduced significantly out. ready the weapon store just across the are now being depleted. also the economic impact on this is causing much concern, especially in europe. and as a result, you ll see the political will and to continue this war, also declining. so, so there is a possibility to and that there s more willingness now to negotiate. and this is what we ve seen in rhetoric. however, and without this however, it s worth noting that only a few weeks ago you have the newspapers like the washington post, arguing that because the public s becoming more where we re where it s important to give the image that we are trying to push it a piece. so it s never really clear because and, and then the more you have such a huge amount to focus on information warfare. so it is quite possible that this is simply, you know, to give an image stuff. you know, we re not preparing yet another order. both can be true at the same time, also ok, that is true because the west is not one uniform voice even within each country. there are like competing voices, even in the united states in washington. some want a quick end to this. now, before the wind, now start to, you know, blowing most of those direction or, you know, must go standard. you have great victories. while they re see this us, you know, an opportunity to lead russia in the long run. you know, deem it very interesting. talks about quite frequently with media and public organizations about what s going on in ukraine any. may he made it clear that it could be, this could be a long effort. he s not hiding the fact. ok, but at the same time saying everything is on course. i think one of the things that the, that makes it very difficult to conceptualize this conflict is that the 2 different sides have very different goals. rush, his goal is to d. miller to rise ukraine. that s very different than victory or regime change. it s the militarization and that is, is line is already explained to us that s happening. and at a pace to do the, the kremlin seems to be comfortable with. so the diff there s because there s different perception. let me go to some different perceptions here. is that if this adds to the agent, what n name this conflict would be, go ahead. well, the wes likes to talk about russia not it s plants, it s august. they say that they re special, meaning reparation will start the temporary plenty for what course we did not foresee that that would be the battle. that would be this long. protracted bias may be. the question is, what does the west, what i mean, even less clear about it. just take the last week, how many contradictory messages there are no, quite sure that the west is not speaking with one voice. there is a very bad voice. the let me give you an example. president margaret just said that russia security concerns should be conceived as the negotiations that we will have at some point when your grade well, basically can speak from the position of course. and you know, so many people west, all does mark rule. and no one defended you. well, it s clear that rock roll the keep agreed. he speaks in many ways says today he says, that s what you tomorrow he calls russia and you would buy. so basically it s more serious. so look like our viewers to think he s a peacemaker. you know, but i mean, at this point here, sorry, but why would someone like vladimir putin take microns telephone call, but what could he possibly say? i mean, well, i mean, because, because the point is, let me go to glen here because it s, it s washington that matter. it s not berlin, it s not paris, it s not london, it s washington. ok. and i want to talk about the interview with weakness. merkel gave to the media. that ll back up my thesis here. so i mean, you know, glenn, who, why should anybody in the kremlin pick up the phone? i mean, what, what are these people saying? what have they said for the last 10 months that would be meaningful? well, i guess we can draw experience from in december and january and those claims are most go didn t really care much what you have to say. didn t really care what the secretary general installed. mary had to say the name on called on worth taking was the one from washington because that end of the day, that s where the decisions will be made. so. so in my, my kid on this, well, he often placed there all of the great, you know, the great leader isn t capable of doing this, you know, hitch and the new year ago. but he said all of this for many years and decided to rush as a part of europe, you know, has to be included with this for 30 years now. so i wouldn t, i think when you really came down to it and russia asked ok, the sentiments, convert them into actual security guarantees for us. nothing ever came from a problem. so, and it s again, it s not saying suggesting he s only weak but also into 2 or send us the support from the americans. not necessarily from the rest of the europeans either. so and france isn t that powerful? they can t swing into whole with, they don t, they don t speak for europe. so it is, it is a positive sign, or at least we re talking about how to negotiate because for so long now, negotiations wasn t able to work when you shouldn t say well, so the current all the appeasement. so in the fact that, you know, you have people like on the us on this is mark mystic general miller, who was suggested now is the time to negotiate. i don t think we can get more out of this war than the older have and, and also, and of course, you know, stolen by because i think to a large extent he speaks on behalf of washington as well. and he also had a very aggressive rhetoric suggesting the only acceptable piece was full victory on the natal ukraine inside the now course is arguing that the diplomacy has to be the less. i m glad you brought it up because i have a quote from him and throw it to dina. right now. this is november and the last new cycle here. but we have to, but we have to pay a much higher price if our freedom in peace are threatened through putin winning in ukraine. again, this is that this is a symmetrical here. what is he talking about? freedom in peace. rush is talking about security and that s what, that s what these negotiation should be about or dema. we can just go back to december 17th of last year as a starting point. ok, we didn t have to go through all of this if, if what nato in washington had taken russia s security demands seriously deem. when we do miles mill warwell, you know what these freedom is slavery and has gone rolling job recent transgendered, the guy who re usable. so it s all absurd and you know, some interesting roger micro phone who calls you saying that he s in good shape. friends, artillery pieces, hope to do your grade. was the same to a kid. basically what i want to say is that this was the males in the west. is it always prevail? just to remind you is prevailed in january. the russian made the suggestions and what and what from the west. but just for the office like we are a peaceful defense alliance, we have no reason to worry. yes, we ve had reasons why are watching the same story with the other suggestions or recourse asians just recently. there were signals from the, from the united states that they were not quite happy with you, that they were not happy with the model. and then today, or, you know, the last week we actually get messages from the science and political quote. american officials want to say in the united states, good reason why it s great to strike at the targets jeep and cyber using roles. so early you will, what is all was the last day or is that and they all week was the lowest. it was immediately this is a very dangerous situation, was we all know where it will stop. well, when would make yours is that if, if it s going to be a, a test of escalation, russia can out escalate nato 6 ways to sunday. i mean, it s not, it can t work. okay. and that when, but that is the dilemma when what nato is doing is it has a political agenda and it has a military one and they re not necessarily aligned. go ahead. well, yeah, and i would also add that part of the reason that divides nato and russia is a fundamental difference view in terms of what creates security. so for nato, they tend to subscribe to the concept of liberal hedge money in which you know, the world is divided between democracy and authoritarians. in other words, good between good and evil. so the more power decide of good huss, that is the nato, russia, the more peace you will have, which is why, you know, the catch phrase is always all we need to negotiate from positional strength. in other words, dictate because this is a great piece where the good guys have all the power. and now this is very different from how it rushes used to world, which focuses more on the secure, to the level that you have competing centers of power. and they have to find ways of harmonizing their security interests. obviously if you think there was divided between good and evil, then harmonizing or finding a common piece with russia, it s very well that that s one of used to word appeasement. because any time you ve been there, antithetical you can t do that. ok, i mean, it is a perversion of its own logic. you gentlemen are going to jump in here. we re going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we ll continue our discussion on some real estate with ah ah ah ah, lisa canter, russian state patrol never. i ve stivers i phone and the most landscape div us american goes house lamps and up for a group in 55. we did. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy when else with we will ban in the european union. the kremlin community up machine, the state on russia for date and school ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest. and we put question, did you think even close to chat with me? oh, welcome back to cross stock. were all things are considered on payroll? well, this is the home edition to remind you, we re discussing some real mints. ah. go back to the ma, here in moscow daemon, the anglo merkel gave a very curious interview in the last couple of days and i think it can be interpreted and the number of different ways me cha. beasley. she was criticized by basically pulling the veil back in saying that meant the mens process was, was really not real. it was buying time per year for ukraine and for nato to build up ukraine s defensive and offensive capacities. here. i m not really sure, i necessarily believe her rendition post back to like this because i think she s tried to justify her policy that essentially failed. but if you look at it from the russian side, well then obviously these people were not serious. the germans weren t serious. the french weren t serious. and why would they be serious now if they want negotiations? i think merkle really damage any kind of the glimmer of hope that there could be talks in the immediate future. go ahead, nima. why? it was, it was a mystery for me. why we rush and then to excuse america. i mean there s this miss in russia that somehow she was good actually was just pretended to be bad. no . just book a fact. okay. look at the daily. so if you don t believe newspapers, you know, merkel needs what each in november, but it builds yada what we used to do that. right? absolutely. right. oh, the sign in all asian agreement with that. when the european you get that, what does the problem? we expect the more we expected more. and then the rebellion stopped in which 38 policemen were killed and congress made cuz they want to watch and fro medical subordinate, you know, i think don t shoot them there. and then, you know, they bring a government down, all the people voted for, you know, and want that to defend their own in the east of the target. but she stands for basically what is the east? so she, she rules the minute reaction. all the korean government that they get defeated their retreating and then she start. yes, by and dime game actually started because they didn t see the new terry. she just said the defeat, but they continued to bought the new york for a year after that because they didn t retain far enough. so i think the reason why so many people in the world i do see is because we can gauge. my theory is that the president has to be, she asked you follow some of that. if people, you know, but that doesn t mean our breast site should, should be as before because he s he was crying safe peace, wake up, save the crew. she was a why she was a very what kind of what she best enormous responsibility or the crash or the relations with the russian in the last 16 years is absolutely agree with you completely, glenn. but this brings up this credibility issue here. i mean, i mean i like to once, why wouldn t your interlock richard high to you again? i mean, we don t even have a basic playing field right now to even start starting talks to start talks. if you know what i mean, that was, and it s an amazing revelation. i m coming from a anglo miracle. like i said, i think she could be playing a monday morning, co quarterback. now. ok, and then i think there is an element about there. but for, for the russians, the element of trust is about 0 right now. that s why i said on this program repeatedly, this conflict will come to an end. when russia says it s over, ok, and it achieves it s goal because it s not going to get a cheap those goals to negotiation is going to get those goals. those goals unilaterally, through the use of course, let water in the mar, referring to is a huge lack of trust, which is necessary to have that trust if you re going to have an actual negotiation and a compromise in a political settlement. obviously, the mutual trust is quite broken on both sides. so for when they look at russia and especially after the nation annexation of this new for region start, this was a huge range. of course, russia christmas arguing is, has his own reasons to be doubtful. i mean, why, why, why would they trust this now? and it s worth going back, how far agreements have been broken? because one would design something. now the reason why, from russia s perspective, this war now is because there was never honored to minsk agreement to sabotage to for 7 years. this is not just a medical course, ankle is largely accepted. also, the american side has been attached and know the reason why we had them in sc agreement. this may cause a war broke out. why do the war broke out? because after the western governments helps support this regime change in gym. and in fact, if you remember during the regime change that we have, there was also an agreement was supposed to be unity government to germans, being one of the guarantee guarantors for having you to government, which and then abandon the following day instead gave all the legitimacy the could to the new government to power into school. and then again, if you can go so far back to it because it always since the end of the cold war is just been broken agreements one after another. keep in mind that in, you know, in $1090.00, we signed the agreements and $94.00 that we re going to have a common year without dividing less. then we broke it by expanding nato and, and then even the year signed agreements with russia in 2005 saying listen, when i was going to, if you re going to engage with common a boot countries like ukraine, we re going to harmonize. it s not one that s one of them on the integrate of expensive the other. well obviously you broke that that s why we end up in the might on the schools has just been is one break, i reach agreement after another. so, and the problem is, is there a difficult place to where sit here in the west? nobody is willing to put themselves into shoes of russia to understand how kind of we, we with the trade all the agreements we have with them a year after. because then you become a put in a rush apologist or nice and you know, wash the council so. so it is a very difficult the ability to see the other side is very much diminished, which means there s a foundation for trust. there s no recognition of mutual interest, and if there is no recognition of mutual interest, you tend to fall into this narrative, some good versus evil. and again, there s no, there s no foundation for compromise or trust them. you know, it s very interest. i really like how gland is phrased it there because of the, what i call the global majority. we play the global south and it s a really our, the global majority. they actually do not see it the way the west does. they actually are far more sympathetic to rushes, interpret asian and dealing with the west, because the global south has had issues dealing with the west over the centuries. so there s a lot more sympathy there on the part of the global south when it comes to rushes interpretation to this conflict. where is the western press life to stay within achieved the opposite result. you know, now sweden and finland wanted to join nato and the name to you guys more than ever . well, there was also another result from erection. and now china wants to buy oil from saudi arabia for chinese. see ok. now india wants to buy well pro ration right now. everyone is talking about the way from the goal, asked the universe, so exchange cars, which is a huge threat states. russia didn t want that. charlotte was, it was the stage, the broader itself by this work, sanction, because everyone in the east didn t get ok. they basically grows the heart of the russian money. they can do it to or, or the last they can do it every, they don t like all we can, you is not ready, threatening them with all cutting off of all kinds. exactly. exactly. so that they don t sell the whole story as you know, there are many points, but that is absolutely right. there was a breach on their side. they have their own narrative. they say, oh russia, you know, respect the charter europe, which we basically signed with, or bunch of blankets. i m sorry it was. i think you get all this job. it was like something are in the gauge, mobile. honda or kate were all for you and i had the problem was how do we get that? so they, they have their own narrative beach and agreements and it is very well developed to these group. the problem is that if the west continues to rehabilitate a i guess the dependent last week if they continue to resubmit it, it is that you were kind of excusing them for any kind of gross they can and are very bad was there will be no negotiation at all, i remember how business can pull up, you know, when he was in power. and the, and boy was very directional. ready. he made their courageous. she came for also and there was a crowd standing next to their i think, what is your story just delivered them out yet in full time, for scar on yours. yeah, here it s pull up here. it s not russia that you do want to call them by the next, the next, the move of some of the people in east of you or they don t want to go. she sure. and if you want to be in your home or do you wish they position, you re never going well, i mean, i want to kind of permanent the exactly, glenn, because then these people that do not want to have negotiations, defacto, do not want to have a, any kind of mutual agreed upon security arrangement in europe. that is that, that is them the worst possible outcome. i mean it, if it s all it s all or nothing my way or the highway, then we re not going to see the security in europe. no, then this is august the the, the main problem we have, but my dear beans are quite divided on this issue though. i mean the, my mentioned in on natal, sol, united. no, but i think that was initially because of the shock am concerned and taken by surprise us russia and they did, but i think in the longer this goes on you re gonna you re going to see more, more, more divisions also within, within europe. but of course destination so can, can also them obstructs any and peaceful negotiations. but again, i think our kind of, they are for some of the european eastern europeans think. i don t think it matters as much as what, what washing wants i, it, it is quite possible that a compromise can be reached. i mean, i even, so it ll me spilling perhaps, after, you know, russia with, at some point even be willing to negotiate, you know, giving updates as well. it s called newly acquired territories on the western bank on the river. i mean, it says western bank and, and, but it s not good, but again, it s not certain and again, demean the main challenge for russia now is what would in piece agreement look like because he would have to, like the americans would, wouldn t allow for, for example, recognizing any in yula corner territory, but for russia it would be the final piece because i suggested if, if you did not get any guarantees there is this piece agreement will just be a temporary cease fire in our voice. i think we are working on a big topic for a future addiction of contact as the time we have that. i want to thank my guest in our slow and here in moscow. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are the see next time. remember that roles? ah, these are the federal de sweden, c o. s mission funder, washington about shawn on house police. be fun, claudia. duty a . i m a constant soonest. means when you get, when you come to the party, you show a teacher go get a new owner of sheila can we do is get a minute. looks that i m get a minute those numbers, but to push those and that, but our mission is to get a minute. those new, when we story creased, you go to other but i should. characters. in fact, he says, until when you finish a washington dig tier 2 dash 1250 says i m lazy, sneak in v fan to the folk. long as all you can do into a donation is stand behind your billing for by my daughter. and i will probably, my, me look on the ones that are spawns and dawson with a i have a question for american partners. tell us which legal act to you and christina, respect, name, of least one therapy at slums, the self declared republic of kosovo. and it s western packers over at border escalation, with special forces reportedly deployed on both sides, also head in the program. these are the backbone you brought to not hillary here. every crew like this one daily gets a list of cruise. they re operating here every day. in our tea crew reports from a flash point area on.