>> we have osamabin laden dead, we have our troops being pulled out of iraq. if things go right which afghanistan which i think we will know pretty soon, that we are able to support a government there that can do the job, then i think we have a chance here to have an entirely different mid east in which we have a policy, in which we have a set of countries we can work with, we can follow our values and not have to deal with these unsavory governments. so there's a real opportunity there. >> charlie: pakistan's ambassador to the united states, and admiral dennis blair when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: every time a storefront opens. or t midnight oil is burne or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small buness owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: pakistan has come under intense scrutiny since osama bin laden was killed on sunday. it's not far from a military college and a military base. questions have been raised about how bin laden could have escaped unnoticed from pakistani authorities. we have the terry advisers john brennan express those concerns. >> we have, you know, many questions about this and i know pakistanis do as well. investigation is ongoing, they're pursuing their leads in this investigation. i think they are trying to determine themselves, whether or not there were individuals within the pakistani government, military and intelligence services who were knowledgeable about bin laden's residence there and whether or not they were providing support. but at this time what we're doing is pursuing the leads and engaging the pakistanis and its too early to tell what type of support system he has. have you seen anything yet inside the pack government. >> the information is going and we're going to look at it very carefully for threat reporting, plotting might be under way, leads to other al-qaeda officis. >> charlie: pakistan has defended its role. it was written in an up he had in "the washington post" that our country has as much reason to hate al-qaeda asnyther nation. he's ambassador of the united states, i am pleased to have him back on this program. welcome. >> thank you. >> charlie: let me read from the "new york times" today which identify happen to have here. quote, and this is from, i'm sure you saw this. bin laden's presence was not known to pakistan's security agencies when he was located close to important military installations, it will be viewed as their incompetence or overconfidence. incompetence or over confidence. military analyst said in an mail message, "if they knew about his presence and did not ta action, this will raise questions about thegenda of pakistan's security agencies for faithing terrorism. ." >> one is complici whi i will object because it is not in his interest for osama bin laden ordering terrorists attacks, killing benazir bhutto, killing several pakistani military officers, actually blowing up isi officers in some towns. the second as you read is over confidence quite possibly, something we need to look at in pack to be -- pack to be and the third is the focus of pakistan's national security strategy which has always been the per perceivd threat from our eastern neighbor. they jt did not take trying to locate osama bin laden as seriously as ty should have. and we are glad that our american partners were able to piece together the information that they did, to focus on this information much of which they gotfrom us. so we would not have been able to make the right conclusions but we certainly were sharing with the americans bits and pieces of intelligence that the americans with their better intelligen and better skills were able to put together. >> charlie: you clearly knew this was in america's interest and america's passion to do, to find osama bin laden. you clearly knew that there were stories that he was in pakistan. so therefore you had to appreciate this was impoant. >> the arany people in kistan who did apeciate that. i don't know if you notice in the "new york times" story, even the people who helped the cia, the people who actually idtified from where on the whole story locating him finally and getting him was built were people from pakistan. you have to understand is that every nation has its own preoccupations and we have a military and intelligence, there's always been concern about the threat from the east. so they have a perction which is not always, which is not always the perception that you and i may v -- may have. now for me as ambassador, and i've done interviews with you before i became ambassador. eliminating terrorism has been the principal call for this generation because terrorism is a threat. it was just 9/11, it was before and after. and there are people in pakistan mitary who thought this was eir job to do it. it's obvious because if they had they would have found osama bin laden and eliminated him instead of the americans doing an operation in pakistan. >> charlie: i can imagine that the american ambassador, pakistan ambassador to the united states, you, knew the questions that you would be asked that i am asking. so you're calling back home and saying what happened, how come you didn't know. what do they say? >> i think that, first of all let me just say that i did make those phone calls and what i'm told is we just dropped the ball. and there is going to be an inquiry of sorts. we will get to the bottom of it. how did it happen. but the most important thing here right now is to reassure people in the united states, pakistan and pakistani as a nation did not look upon osama bin laden favorably. i'm getting threatening phone calls. they are sending e-mails saying instead of recognizing what pakistan has contributed, the failure is being pointed out. now let' just remember intelligence failed in thease of mass destruction in iraq. u.s. intelligence and u.s. has sat -- satellites in the air, pakistan has none. is there someone in the food chain that should have identified osama bin laden in pakistan earlier? definitely. but was it malice on theart of e state of pakistan or the government of pakistan ooze a whole or the institution or th-- >> charlie: how aboutthe leadership. >> i think the president of pakistan does and will intend to ask everyone. he will ask the leadership to o a complete inquiry and find out what happened who dropped the ball where. and was it just a dropping of the ball and not reading the right sign. >> charlie: competence. >> that's competence but there's another aspect which is, do you know what, our image of threat comes from another direction. that's what we should focus on. >> charlie: but take this example. it is widely believed that omar is in pakistan. do you believe that? >> after what happened yesterday, i have no reasono doubt that if the american intelligence community believes something, it's something that needs to be taken very seriously. >> charlie they do belie that >> y, i know. and so i would, a week ago if you'd asked me that question, i would have said we have no knowledge. today i'm going to say since the american intelligence is so convinced about osama bin laden's location and they do have the means, much better and superior means of finding things out, we have to take this intelligence more seriously and work together with the americans to locate omar, and everybody else connected not only to the 9/11 plot but also to the whole concept of the terrorism. >> charlie: part of the problem here is the absence of trust between our intelligence service and your intelligence service. they want to tell you because they believe it's real. they been corrupted that's part of the reason. >> i am working very hard and my friend is working very hard and of course we haven't been able to finish the mistrust. but it is something that we have to dea with because you know what, pakistan in the united states cannot be partners, and at the same time not trustach other. so there are hard questions that are being asked, charlie. it's not just here, there are hard questions being asked in pakistan. pakistan's own media is being very introspective and very hard asking tough questions. on o government and on our leaders and on our former leaders. people are asking why did you repeatedly say that he was absolutely convinced that osama bin laden wasn't here when he was eventually found in pakistan. >> charlie: i'm told by american officials that in meeting afte meeting they wer to either we don't know where osama bin laden is or he's not in pakistan. >> y. and with hinight, the first of the answers is a mited aner. if you don't know, you don't know. but the second part of the answer definitely saying he's not here ... in a coupl interviewsver the lea few years i've been asked questions about osama bin laden and i called saying i really do not know where he is. we do not know definitely and if he is in pakisn, it's not in our interest to keep him there or to protect him. look, having him there protected by the government or our intelligence service just could not have been good for pakistan, period. and so we couldn't have done it deliberately. all that is possible is that there are individuals within pakistan who provided a support network for osama bin laden, and mr. brnan has said that and it's a valid question. pakistan has to get worried about whyid he choose pakistan as the place to live. obviously he felt comfortable there an that is something that has we will deal with the question and find the answer. >> charlie: john brennan's point that there had to be a local support system is true. >> absolutely. i mean charlie, if you we on the lam, would not you want to be somewhere where you had a support system. absolutely. that's something we have to see. >> charlie: will pakistan give us an answer to tt. >> i hope we will work together to find that. >> charl: that is a support system and who knew about it. >>bsolutely and there are some people who have been detained. look, e americanteam just came, conducted the operation and left. the rest of the pieces are now in pakistani hands. we want that information, and we willhare that with our american partners. we understand, we understand that americans have trust issues with us. we also have trust issues, our internal service has trust issues with americans because of other reason narcotics but -- factors but it's time for everybody to sit down and talk. president obama reache out in his speech and made it very clear that he appreciated pakistani cooperation. bruce strider written now throots greater need for the united states to help and support and strengthenhe government so they can exercise -- >> charlie: but did pakistan appreciate how important it is, never more than now to prove that the isi is not complicit. >> oh, absolutely. >> charlie: with, wit-- >> absolutely. charlie taliban, with om. if they had more trust, it might not have taken so long because they couldn't, finally had a name and they finally had a person. i suspect they couldn't tell you any of this because they didn't trust you to communicate to somebody. >> they did not trust the system of our intelligence operations, and very fraly, it is something that we have to work pound. in this particular incident has serious implications, and we will work on those issues now. of course. there are people in pakistan and the pakistani foreign office has expressed that, coming without notifiation and essentially was -- >> charlie: invasion. >> absolutely. my point of view is i have publicly stated today both in pakistan and to the u.s. media, i have said yoafs ma -- osama bin laden is from mac stink. comes from another country and sets up shop in our country. it's time for pakistanis as a tion to wake up and stop making excuses. as far as the government is concerned, as fa as the president of pakistan is concerned, the prime minister pakistan is concerned, i myself, i dropped military leadership, we get the message and we understand the need of what we need to do. >> charlie: you want to go get omar, go ahead. >> i hope we have the mutual trust where we can actually do it together. >> charlie: if they don't have the mutual trust, can they go get him anyway. >> i'm not going to saywhether they ought to or not that's not for me to say. but they're already demonstrated the ability to do it without asking us and only notifying us later. so i don't think that one can actually debate reality. >> charlie: tell me this. this is one of the missing pieces in this. when did the pakistani government know this actionwas taking place? >> well, when it was happening, obviously the local government or whoever was in abbottabad knew what was happening but they didn't tell any clue what was happing. there was exosions. >> there was a helicopter in the air. >> helicopter and everything. but the officl word came when president obama spoke to president musharraf and then the head of the isi, the counterpart and then admiral mullens spoke to the head of our army. >> charlie: this is after the helicopters had lifted up from the compnd, while they were still on the ground. >> no, no, no. according to the time line that i ha understood -- >> charlie: i'm not asking you from what you know from the newspaper but from the pakistani -- they were gone, they were worried they could be shut down. when they heard, they were scrambling. >> they haven't notified earlier and there could have been some incident. but then we also have to look at the displacement of our air -- after all, we have always assumed that any area intsion into our sovereign territory will come from the east so the integration of our entire -- >> charlie: from afghanistan. >> no from india. >> charlie: india, i'm sorry. >> so we've always had that configuration. and actually, all of this, all ofhis, the fact that bin laden was found in pakistan, the fact that the americans were able to conduct this operation without us bng able to act in time. the fact that the america chose not to tell us beforehand, even though we are allies and partners and secrery clinton is going to be traveling ain soon and we have a strategic dialogue going on and have the high level contact and all of that. in the presence of all those facts, we really have to do a lot of hard thinking. now you know that had a prior life before bei ambassador, and in that i wrote extensively on the subject and i would just call -- >> charlie: military for the mosque or something. >> pakistan between mosque and military and i always made the argument that pakistan has to reconfigure what i call the strategic paradigm. and i think this has definitely become a time for us to dohat. >> charlie: reconfigure. why should it take us. >> first of all, we need to face the fact that terrorists are present in pakistan. there would be no excuses for any of them, irrespective of what their call is or what is is -- >> charlie: some of them -- >> whoever it is. >> charlie: we have -- >> absutely. those of benazir bhutto and those who killed -- look, thousands of pakistanis have been killed, more mac -- pakistanis have been killed by terrorists. yet there are still people in pack -- pakistan -- as i said, the americans certainly did not respect our sovereignty by not informing us beforehand, but at the same time pakistanis also need to worry about the fact that why is osama bin laden not a citizen of pakistan ting refuge in our country. i was crucified for the policy -- i jokingly asked some friend there's bin laden living in pakistan. we he to do a lot of hard thinking and as pakistanis we are doing it. >> charlie: is this an appropriate time for the united states to raise the issue about the pakistani military not prepared to go after the haqqani network. >> this is the time to discuss -- >> charlie: this is a issue for them because they just poor across border. >> i understand that there have been conversations since this incident with general -- on the telephone. i understa that pakistan's intelligence service and the american are already planning to exchange notes and understand what's going on here. and of course, president has been presiding over high level meetings to try and develop a coherent policy. look, if you see the pakistani media, charlie, some people there still, it's all a question of how you framehe issue. they're all wondering about how did the americans get instead of asking why is osama bin laden here. so it's a whole real orientation, which i think this is just the right time for. rethink, which includes would pakistan's own security be jeopardid more, mo by not focusing on the terrorists or by actually taking out the terrorists. now people in pakistan has always been afraid of terrorists engaging enterprises. but here's my point which many pakistanis feel. that if we allow the terrorists to continue to act within pakistan with o without any sanction. i insist there is no official sanction. osama bin laden was not there through an official sanction. heas there with some private support network. as long as their terrorists within pakistan we will not be a part of the international community, with the rights and privileges with the stature that we deserve. it's time to rethink all tha and i think the rethinking has started. >> charlie: are you glad this is the place. >> i'm relieved that osama bin laden is no more. i think that osama bin len was a person who actually caused great harm to islam, to muslims and to every country with whom he had associated in many way. he distributed to his country of birth, saudi arabia, he has caused problems for pakistan. he was definitely not a good n, he was an evilman. his departure from this world is definitely going to provide impetus to the effort to try and pursue our lives in accordance with some standards and civilization. what was your grievance, you can't go around blowing up people, innocent people just because you say you have a grievance against the world order. so is ma billion's arguments were wrong, his beliefs were wrong and his actions were wrong. >> charlie: is your government embarrassed, is that a fair way to characterize it. >> i think that our government is seriously concerned and obviously the questions that are being asked are tough. we are having to answer a lot of questions. i in the last48 hours have probably done more interviews than i would have done if i were running for office of the united states. so there's a l ofxplation that's been sought and given. but there's also an opportunity, it's an opportunity to point out that pakistan and the united states are analyze, that we are partners, that amid a of this, these also a lot of good going . this is the time to build on the good and strengthen our partnership and bring us closer as nation and governments and partners. >> charlie: here what's interesting too. the n laden family is in the custodof the pakistani -- they were the. so after the raid, you were interviewed. you were questioned. what are we finding out? >> well, i have had no sor of feedback on what have we found out, if anything, and if the questioning has started. look, some of these people age ranges from two to, you know, mid teens or ely teens. so how do you question a two year old, really. >> charlie: first you have to -- >> first you have to identify their names, figure them out, find out who they are, etcetera. i think when the questioning about substantive issues starts, we will be sharing it with the americans. >> charlie: okay. because i'm fast need by tt. what was his life like, what was he doing? what was his support system like. >> absolutely. >> charlie: who knew. >> who knew and what did they know and when did they know. in fact, god forbid there's an