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to argue, it is difficult to change venue and in these type cases it hasn't been successful. they want to prevent people from having their say next year, whatever the say is. bill barr, no love lost between trump and barr, disagrees with free speech and this is why. >> they are not attacking his first amendment right, he is say whatever he want, that does not protect you from entering into coconspiracy, all fraud involve speech. >> laura: john issue your response to that? >> john: laughable. what is the fraud? tell me what the fraud is? what is the fraudulent speech? president trump was petitioning
right? and certainly i think some of the people who were involved in some of these discussions i think believed that the former president would pass a lie detector test because he is that delusional about what happened. one of the things i think the former attorney general is getting at is the prosecutors have a ton of evidence. there is the things he mentioned, the roger stone, the steve bannon, there is a whole idea that they had concocted this whole plan that if he fell behind, he was going to declare victory and claim fraud. so there is a ton of circumstantial evidence. and people get convicted every day in this country on evidence that, you know, not getting into people's state of mind, not getting into their heads. i think he is on to something there. >> it is a high burden of proof as barr was saying there. but trump's mind-set and his intent here is at the key of this indictment we got yesterday. and looking at that and bill barr noticeably not saying anything when i asked if he had
think believed that the former president would pass a lie detector test because he's that delusional about what happened. but, you know, one of the things i think the former attorney general is getting at is that the prosecutors have a ton of evidence. there is the things that he mentioned, roger stone, steve bannon, there is a whole idea that they've concocted this whole plan that if he fell behind, he was going to declare victory and declare, claim fraud. so, there is a ton of circumstantial evidence. people get convicted every day in this country on evidence that, you know, not getting into people's state of mind, not getting into their heads. so, i think he's on to something. >> and it is a high burden to prove, of course, as barr was saying there. but i mean, trump's mindset and his intent here is the key of this indictment that we got yesterday, carrie. looking at that and bill barr
knew well that he had lost the election. now, that leads me to believe that they were only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. >> you think jack smith has more? >> oh, yes. i would believe he has a lot more. i think there's a lot more to come, and i think they have a lot more evidence as to president trump's state of mind. >> clearly, barr works very closely with the former president in his time with the administration. what's your reaction to that? >> i think that it's actually not that they have to prove what he truly believed, although evidence he was told that he lost and any reasonable person would believe is very helpful. what they really need to prove is what he did. it's so interesting and important that paragraph one of the indictment says the defendant lost the election. because that's the factual predicate. he lost, and what did he do illegally to overturn that loss? so they're really going to focus
shannon: bill barr is conned vince that had jack smith mas -- convince that had jack smith has more and there were 18 consecutive pages blacked scout a lot of questions of what else did pence say and what else don't we know that's been held behind closed doors for the grand jury and again, what you present to a grand jury and how you do it at trial, that's no one defending the grand jury. getting to trial, we'll see a lot more. >> dana: do you want to see democrats losing their minds? we have that here. harold: sure. >> greg: just walk outside. >> he makes the deal with smith. >> without jail time? >> without jail. he says, look, i'm going away and moving to saudi arabia. i just want him to go away and stop ruining my country. >> but there's prosecutors that would offer him a plea agreement without time if he'd agree to never run for public office again anywhere.
none of those guys looked at it. harold: that's not true. some of the courts d. it's so unfortunate and i think tragic that we oftentimes preface when talking about a court and a judge appointed by this person or that person. judges like anybody in elected office take an oath of office and fundamental to the oath is upholding the constitution and i believe any judge be they appointed by george w, hw, trump whomever they are and they're going to try and uphold the law. whether we like and agree with attorney general barr, he believes that president trump knew ease things. vice president pence believes when i say these things he believes that president trump knew that he had lost this race .x he was acting with some intentionality. these are things that they're saying and i would imagine that these people likely will be called by jack smith during the course of this case. one thing i do agree with whole heartedly as president trump said getting on the plane there
right now. i'm starting to agree with greg, i hate to say that. signs are pointing that he might not be the nominee and i want to bring up what you said about barr. some really smart lawyer earlier on fox said if they're going to bring in barr as a witness, they get to crossbar and say, okay, you told trump there was no election fraud. what did you do to investigate it? how many man hours did you spend and how much money did you spend in where did you go and what did the lieutenants tell you? you can't say everything is find and two weeks you checked for fraud. everybody has the right to be suspicious and a covid reelection blowing out signature and blow out all the deadlines and blast out all these unsolicited ballots into the ecosystem with no chain of custody, you're in the suspicious and a right to be suspicious and all the state legislators know there's no power to do anything about it. it was just done via judicial
in, quote, massive fraud. this is important because it is an example of how trump kept saying absolute nonsense, even after it was debunked to his face, in conversations, in meetings with him. the indictment alleges that his attorney general, then his ting ag and deputy ag all told him it was wrong. we know his cybersy, election security arm did the same. he kept saying it nonetheless. this was far from the only case where we had this kind of thing. another example was the so-called georgia suitcases full of ballots from under the table we heard so much, he was told directly by the secretary of state of georgia and the top department officials this was wrong, he kept saying it, he said pennsylvania had 205,000 more votes than voters, he had been told that was wrong by a top justice department official, but kept saying it. this nonsense about vote dumps, the late night dumps we heard about in detroit and elsewhere, attorney general barr and others told him that was nonsense. that was just votes being counted as normal and yet again he persisted and kept telling
affidavits of widespread law irregularities that sow largely baseless. what is the utility of having bernie kerik's pile of interesting notes in the possession of the special counsel's office? barr? >> i think part of it is jack smith just wants to know everything that is out there even if it turns out to be something that is not going to be evidence. he just wants to know what's out there. and with regards to bernie kerik and his connection to rudy giuliani, one unanswered mystery to this whole case is what happened at the willard hotel in that war room? bernie kerik was part of that group along with rudy giuliani. there were connections with roger stone, the people who attacked the capitol, the proud boys in the oath keepers and i wonder whether tax smith doesn't want to close the loop there and see if there can be some connection between mark meadows, donald trump and what happened at the capitol on january 6th. we recall that cassidy hutchinson said that mark meadows was going to go to the willard hotel on the night of january 5th. she talked about even, instead