before and after. >> there you go. when you have to resort to torture, what happened in 9/11 was we had no human assets inside of al qaeda. at least according to french intelligence, who i was working very closely with. and all of the major terrorist attacks that the french stymied, stymied through infiltrating these groups. and the idea that torture is number one effective, because you reach a point where even if they say something is true, you keep going, and they'll say anything to stop the pain. >> time winds down. i want to give you the last shot. you've been enormously skeptical of what our strategy has been thus far towards al qaeda. in 30 seconds, give us the strategy you would have us pursue. >> we should have built on the empathy that we had garnered throughout the muslim world after 9 swlsh 11. terrorism is a tactic, it's been with us for generations. you can't make car against a tactic. you have to isolate terrorists within their own society. and as soon as the bush administration started dropping iron fragmentation bombs all over the middle east, they became the best recruiting tool